Interview: MOULIN ROUGE!'s Dance Captain Jason-Leigh Winter on Wage Disparity, Union Representation and Being Valued

Years of training, endless dedication and innumerable hours of training, rehearsal and performance. Despite all this, the majority of those who choose to work in the theatre do so because they love it, knowing that it is not likely to bring them riches. However, the cost of living continues to bite in every walk of life and those working in the theatre in the UK are feeling the pinch.

Having worked on Frozen, Kinky Boots and Matilda, Jason-Leigh Winter has years of experience as a West End performer. He is currently performing as Swing and Dance Captain in the West End smash-hit Moulin Rouge!

As a swing, he is one of those hugely versatile performers who is vital to these huge shows, providing cover to any number of ensemble roles and ready to step in at a moment's notice.

He recently provoked a huge response to a tweet which asked why working in theatre is so poorly paid.

The tweet has now been viewed over 280,000 times, prompting sympathy and support from the public, other performers and theatre workers. Some revealed they had given up on the industry due to financial pressures and questioned the disparity between wages for workers in the West End and on Broadway.

In May 2021, Dr Heidi Ashton of Warwick University published a paper comparing West End and Broadway pay and conditions The paper said that: "despite performing the exact same work step for step and note for note in identical shows, performers in the UK are paid around half that of their US counterparts and experience greater precarity."*

Jason-Leigh Winter spoke to BroadwayWorld about the pressures of the cost of living on theatre workers, the impossibility of a work/life balance and that tweet.

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Your recent comments on Twitter regarding low pay in theatre caused a big reaction. What was it that prompted you to write them?

The main prompt for it was a massive increase from my landlord in my monthly rent. But it is something I've always felt quite strongly about. Theatre is a highly-skilled career and it takes a lot of time and sacrifice to perfect your art and reach the top of your game. And I just don't feel like this is represented in the wages.

There's no reward for experience within the industry. From show to show you will be on the same basic wage as everyone. Meaning someone with 10, 15, 20 year's worth of experience in the industry, and all the wealth of knowledge and etiquette that brings to a production, will be on the same pay as someone who has just left college and is just starting out. That's not to take away anything from the worth/talent of graduates: we were all one at one point. But in any other industry, experience amounts to a pay progression. Not to mention that naturally as we get older, we tend to pick up more responsibilities, and our outgoings become higher. To reach the West End, the "pinnacle" of UK theatre, and need to work one or two extra jobs just to stay afloat seems crazy to me.

Why do you think some people assume that professions within UK theatre are highly paid?

I guess with ticket prices becoming so high. And the "Hollywood" images of glitz and glamour maybe. Obviously some people within shows are earning those high rates of pay that people expect, but it is most definitely not across the board. I think some people class all entertainment industries as the same, maybe comparing our wages to film/TV wages, which are extremely different.

What would you say are the biggest challenges to performers working in the UK theatre at the moment?

Work/life balance is by far the toughest in my opinion. Hours are much longer than just show times for most people in the show, especially other departments. And that's six days a week. Add onto that time spent on things we're required to do to keep in peak physical/mental/vocal health for our job, there's not much time to do much else. Especially when having to pull a second job to make up your income.

For me personally this is why there's a limit as to how far out of central London I can live, as I need to keep my travel times low. Therefore I'm having to pay high London rates of rent and living. So I need to work more to pay for it. It's a vicious circle. I feel for people with families. The sacrifices parents make; memories and moments they miss.

What are your views on the role of Equity in UK theatre and how it represents its members?

I know people have very mixed and some very strong opinions on Equity in the UK. I have always been a member of Equity since graduating. I do believe in the power of a union and the fact that we are stronger together. For me the problem lies in people wanting a quick fix. Equity can't fix the problems instantly so people don't want to join. But without people joining, Equity can't fix the problems. I look at how strong other unions are, for example The Musicians' Union, or US Equity, so I know they can work.

What do you think about the recent announcement from Equity and the Independent Theatre Council about improvements in pay and conditions?

It is a massive win for Equity, giving us an insight into the power our union could have if membership numbers were higher. There's still so much to do but this is a huge step forward and I'm thrilled for the industry and Equity.

After all your training and your experience, do you feel valued in your career?

Yes and no. I feel very lucky for the career I have had. I have worked with and for amazing people. I don't really have horror stories to report and I am very grateful for every job, either for the love for that show and people, or the lessons it taught me.

However I would say no because of points I've made as regards to pay progression. A bugbear of mine is how low the rates of pay are for covers and swings. They are in no way comparable to how much a principle gets to play the role, and ensemble are expected to be ready to go on for it at any time, whilst also performing an ensemble track, potentially more physically and sometimes vocally demanding than the role they cover.

A swing's pay is a flat rate, regardless of how many tracks they cover. A swing on a show with only 5/6 tracks will earn the same swing pay as one on a show with 10/12 tracks to cover. It makes no sense.

Pay for theatre performers and staff is significantly higher on Broadway. Why do you think the West End pay remains so much lower?

I genuinely don't know. This is a question I've asked myself my whole career. In regards to performers, I think the main problem is differences in how US Equity works to UK Equity. Not having to earn an Equity card means the whole industry rules are a lot more flexible, and in my opinion gives producers more ability to pay such a range of wages. It's the "there's always someone else who will do it cheaper" attitude. The industry is massively oversaturated, so people will accept a lower wage than they should for fear of not working. If we had the same structure as US Equity I believe it would stop a lot of these problems.

What is your view on the high level of some ticket prices in the West End?

I'm not going to even begin to pretend I understand how much it takes to rent a theatre, run a show etc. and after Covid I completely understand that producers are trying to claw back from catastrophic losses. My only fear is it making theatre extremely inaccessible for the majority.

Do you see yourself working in UK theatre for the rest of your working life?

I used to. But now I'm not so sure, I genuinely don't think currently it supports a healthy work/life balance, and the financial gain is not high enough for all the sacrifices you have to make.

Moulin Rouge! The Musical is currently running at the Piccadilly Theatre

*Ashton, H. (2021) Comparative analysis of pay and conditions: London's West End and New York's Broadway. Various: Creative Industries Policy and Evidence Centre and the University of Warwick. Available from: https://www.pec.ac.uk/discussion-papers/comparative-analysis-of-pay-and-conditions-londons-west-end-and-new-yorks-broadway

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