BWW EXCLUSIVE: Jerry Springer Talks TV, DWTS, Broadway & PETER PAN in London

Celebrating twenty years of THE Jerry Springer SHOW on the air, the controversial talk show host and stage personality was kind enough to set aside some time this week to talk to me about his stints as Billy Flynn in CHICAGO - on Broadway and in the West End - as well as joining recent InDepth InterView participants Raul Esparza and Alice Ripley onstage as the Narrator in the 2000 revival of THE ROCKY HORROR SHOW on Broadway. Coming up, Jerry will be playing the role of Captain Hook in the UK special holiday event panto production of PETER PAN next month. In this revealing discussion, we also touch upon the rise of reality TV, DANCING WITH THE STARS, Howard Stern, Rosie O'Donnell, why theatre is the best art form on the planet, and much, much more. And, no theatre-centric Springer discussion would be complete without a thorough analysis of the shockingly brilliant Jerry Springer: THE OPERA, winner of the Olivier Award for Best Musical and now available on Region 2 DVD.

This Is My Jerry Springer Moment

PC: I have to tell you that as someone who is twenty-six, Jerry Springer - the whole phenomenon - was like Elvis to us in junior high.

JS: (Laughs.) Oh, you poor thing, Pat!

PC: No, it's true! Everyone had Springer-mania! It was wild.

JS: I appreciate that. I remember that time well.

PC: How has TV changed in the last ten years? In speaking to Rosie O'Donnell recently and you, now - you two were at the top and now all there is is THE VIEW and reality TV.

JS: Well, I think there has been a shift. I mean, we are in our twentieth year now.

PC: And, congratulations on that.

JS: Thank you. I think there has been a trend that's been going on in the media world for, I guess, the last thirty or forty years: it's the democratization of the media.

PC: Can you elaborate and trace it to now?

JS: It started with - well, the first evidence of it probably was with - radio talk shows where listeners would call in and then they became part of the entertainment. So, you would be listening to the talk show on the radio in your car, and you would be as entertained by the callers as much as you were by the host.

PC: What a fascinating dynamic to emerge.

JS: It goes even further, because it all went to television - especially with Phil Donahue. And, all of a sudden, the audience became the actual entertainment. It's all progressed from there.

PC: To today.

JS: Yeah, look at us right now - the internet came along. But, first, came chat rooms. So, young people started to provide their own entertainment. They would spend their evenings in chatrooms just talking among themselves. Then, you started to have the talk shows like ours - where you didn't have to be famous, but regular people could talk about what was going on in their lives. And, then, that became the entertainment.

PC: And what crazy entertainment it is!

JS: Then, we had interactive - where we went even a step further. You have YouTube and shows where people can vote - like AMERICAN IDOL and DANCING WITH THE STARS - where the audience would actually vote for who they want.

PC: And you participated in that trend yourself!

JS: Yes, yes. So, the trend has been - and, now, with all these reality shows - unstoppable. Now, it's where the audience - just regular citizens - have become the entertainers. It used to be, you would sit in the audience and watch someone onstage or on a ball-field or a movie screen - but, nowadays, we the people are the entertainment.

PC: Your show popularized that whole concept.

JS: Yeah, but, now, with the internet being what it is, the trend will continue.

PC: So, you feel like you and Howard Stern and the people who brought The Common man to the forefront are the forerunners of reality TV in a way? Your guests are a hell of a lot more interesting than Angelina Jolie!

JS: (Laughs.) Well, I think, we always knew - although we never articulated it - that the most interesting people we ever ran into were probably people in our own neighborhood someplace. You know, throughout history we have always had conversations about someone down the block doing something.

PC: Totally.

JS: It just used to be that you would meet at the town square. Or, back in Roman times, you would meet at the Coliseum and you would talk about all these things. Or, even, in the shopping areas throughout time. So, we have always been - and human beings always will be - we have always been social animals and we have always been interested in our own behavior. So, at some point, when Hollywood came along we started to gussie these people up - to use an old expression...

PC: A good one.

JS: We all of a sudden had these very good looking people with a written script in movies. But, in reality, we all turned to gossip magazines and we were all, frankly, more interested in the private lives of these celebrities than in any particular movie they might have made.

PC: That's so, so fascinating.

JS: Yeah. I mean, for example, today, a lot more people know about Paris Hilton than have ever met her. Or gone to her concerts - but, she doesn't have concerts. (Laughs.)

PC: Thank God!

JS: Or, even, Britney Spears - more people talk about her than have actually bought her albums or seen her live in concert, et cetera. So, I think it is inevitable. We are fascinated by human behavior - and, often entertained by it; sometimes outraged by it; but we can't stop looking.

PC: Like The Fool in KING LEAR having more insight into life than Lear himself - or any of the characters, for that matter - does.

JS: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That happens all the time. That's a great, great point.

PC: Just this month I also interviewed two of your ROCKY HORROR cast-mates - Alice Ripley and Raul Esparza. Could you tell me what that experience was like, doing the show with them? Any wild antics?

JS: Well, I only did ROCKY HORROR for just a little bit. I think it was this time of the year, over the holidays.

PC: It was just fun to see you live. That casting for the narrator was always so fun, for the whole run.

JS: Oh, well, thanks. That was my first experience on Broadway. I don't know that I have one particular story... I was just amazed at the professionalism of people on Broadway. Like, last summer - or, two summers ago - when I did CHICAGO on Broadway, I was just amazed by their talent. (Pause.) In other words, there is no one in show business that is more talented than the people who perform on Broadway.

PC: None.

JS: It's not even close. I really mean, in other words: you don't have to be talented to be in the movies - you could be, but you don't have to be. You certainly don't have to be talented to be on television - again, you could be, but you don't have to be. But, to be on Broadway: you gotta have it!

 

PC: The real deal.

JS: Yeah! These people - they sing, they dance, they act; the whole thing. And, with such precision, every single night, with no net and no retakes - they are the most talented people I have ever seen in my life in terms of the performing arts. I was amazed. I mean, I did CHICAGO a few months in the West End and then I did it on Broadway and I have never seen people like that - talent like that. That was really a life-changing experience in terms of my respect.

PC: So, you gained a whole new appreciation for them?

JS: All the real stars of show business are on Broadway - and these are people, frankly, that most of America doesn't even know their names. We don't even know their names.

PC: And most of them have more talent in their pinkie than the entire cast of JERSEY SHORE or Paris Hilton possesses.

JS: Oh, exactly. Exactly. And, fame - and I am living proof of this - there is no correlation between fame and talent.

PC: That's not true.

JS: Well, I am a nice guy and reasonably bright, maybe - that's it.

PC: You are a great interviewer.

JS: Frankly, I think if you are a normal, nice person you could ask the same questions as me. Yeah, you might have to be reasonably intelligent to do it, but I don't really see myself as talented. I mean, I don't think anyone would have picked me out of a line in high school and said, "This kid is gonna be in show business!"

PC: No, they'd say: "This kid is gonna be the mayor!"

JS: Yeah, that's true! (Laughs.)

PC: And you were!

JS: I was! (Big Laugh.) I just have phenomenal respect for them on Broadway. These people are on another planet of talent. Every night I went out there and I felt like, "Oh, my God. Why is my name up there in lights?"

PC: Yet, more people in one night probably saw you on DANCING WITH THE STARS than all the people who saw the entire ten-year-run of CHICAGO on Broadway combined.

JS: Yeah, yeah, it's hard because - as I said before - the world has changed, and the industry has changed, and the result is that the audience has become the entertainment. So, it may result in lower quality - because it's democratized, so everyone gets it. So, the overall average is less - but, that's the trade-off. Rather than have a few people sitting in an office someplace smoking cigars and deciding who is going to be the next great star, now the people decide. Just like with anything in democracy, you don't necessarily get perfection, but, at least you get what the public wants.

PC: Do you think we are headed the Rome route? A prison camp on an island with a fight to the death reality show? People have died on a number of them.

JS: Someone will do something that crazy, no question. (Pause.) Listen, in a country of 350 million people there are always going to be things that are over-the-edge. Otherwise, you don't have boundaries.

PC: If you don't go over the top, you can't see the other side.

JS: Right. I mean, the assumption of boundaries is that someone goes over them. The reason you have a police force is because you know that there are people who break the law.

PC: Exactly.

JS: So, of course, someone is going to go over the limit with reality TV, but the real test is how you keep it entertainment and yet stay within the bounds of civilization.

PC: What do you think of the FCC and censorship in this country? I mean, nudity is as outlawed as anything else - as you well know, from your show.

JS: Well, I don't get too bent out of shape - but, maybe I should. I certainly get bent out of shape - but, that's maybe the political me - about anything to do with political expression, because any censorship of that, I think, must be constitutionally protected - I mean, there is no place for that in free society.

PC: I agree.

JS: When it comes to some of the... for example, what you might see on television: there are other elements involved. Because television is invasive, in terms of the home, it does reduce the choice people have - particularly with children in the home. So, I do draw the line between children and adults.

PC: Of course. Understandably.

JS: I can see that there needs to be some balance to permit parents to establish what they want in their own home with their own children - so, that means probably some kind of infringement on what would be perfectly OK for adults. So, I, obviously, would believe that there should be no censorship on anything.

PC: Me, too!

JS: Yeah, but most people aren't like you and me! (Pause.) I mean, I can respect it when I go into some very religious home and they have certain things they don't want said or seen. Now, I have a different view of the theatre - because if you buy the ticket and choose to come to the theatre, well, that's what you're gonna get!

PC: Exactly. The element of surprise is essential.

JS: For example, when they did Jerry Springer: THE OPERA, I thought they did a great job in the theatre. When they decided to put it on the BBC... I did think that was crazy!

PC: Really?

JS: They got fifty thousand objections to it! Now, I'm not saying those who were objecting were right, I am just saying: if you are going into someone's home you have to expect that some people are going to say, "I'm sorry, I didn't ask for that." You know, "I wasn't aware that that was the way it was going to be." So, I get it. We have to make some accommodations if we want to have some sort of a civilized society and that's the one area I'm willing to bend a little bit with. For example, I didn't mind when they put classifications on movies - or, even, when they put classifications on records. Big deal!

PC: You can still experience the art. They aren't thwarting the art, just classifying the content.

JS: Yeah, it's not gonna stop anyone from putting on a record of anything they want. But, as long as you know when you go and buy it what you are getting - I think that's a reasonable request. As a parent, I'm saying, "That's OK." I mean, when my child was young I didn't want her watching my show!

PC: I was just going to ask... (Laughs.)

JS: Yeah, I didn't - I can say that. But, then, once she was older - not eighteen, but older - well, then that is fine. That's part of growing up and learning to exist in the world, and, well, there you go.

PC: Parents need to play the role of censor, not producers and artists.

JS: Yes. I'm kind of OK with that - the way [classification ratings] are - but, again, only as long as people are given the choice whether they want to view it or not. That's why I make the distinction between the FCC and television and what goes on in a live theatre or a movie where you buy the ticket and - as long as you are warned what it might be going in - it's just: buyer beware.

PC: Jerry Springer: THE OPERA is one of my favorite musicals of the last ten years. It's brilliant. Truly.

JS: Isn't it great?

 

PC: Yes. Also, it's the only musical in the West End to ever win all four Best Musical prizes - including the Olivier.

JS: They did a great job - I wish it was about somebody else! - but, they did a great job.

PC: You can say that again! Have you seen the DVD?

JS: You know what? I haven't. I really need to check that out.

PC: It is so cool, with a commentary and tons of behind-the-scenes interviews and stuff.

JS: I know they did a good job on it - everything on that [production].

PC: The whole concept of the show is so genius - with you becoming the moral interlocutor between the devil and God in Act II.

JS: (Laughs.) Yeah. I know. (Pause.) I don't think I'm gonna wind up in that position! (Laughs.)

PC: If you did, you would be fair! You're always, always fair.

JS: You are too kind, Pat. Thank you.

PC: So, now, you are in the UK pantomime production of PETER PAN, right - stepping in for David Hasselhoff?

JS: Right - which is something in itself! (Laughs.)

PC: Did you see panto growing up? I know you grew up in England.

JS: Honestly, I was born there and I lived there for the first five years - but I didn't quite grow up there. But, it was during the war that I was there, so I didn't see one because there weren't any.

PC: What a shame.

JS: Yeah, I know what it is, though. They actually asked me last year and this year to do it, but I couldn't because I can't be away from my show for eight weeks in the middle of the winter.

PC: Especially on two or three episode days - like today!

JS: Right. As it turned out, David can't do it for two and a half weeks, so - with one trip back - I can do it for those two and a half weeks. I have to come home in the middle for my show and then come back.

PC: It's going to be a busy new year, then!

JS: Yeah, but for those two and a half weeks I can do it, so I said, "Yes!" And, (Dramatic Pause.) as we speak, I am going over my lines. (Laughs.)

PC: What's this production like? Is it a musical?

JS: Yeah, it's a musical of PETER PAN and I play Captain Hook.

PC: Are there new songs in this or are they traditional?

JS: Yeah, it's a spoof. Truthfully, I only know the songs I am going to do so I can't tell you if they are normally in the show. One, I know, isn't - because they said I should choose any song I wanted to sing. The idea is that I jump out of character to suddenly break into song.

PC: What song is it?

JS: "Act Naturally".

PC: I don't know that song!

JS: The opening line is, (Sings. A country song.) "They're gonna put me in the movies / They're gonna make a big star out of me. / Make a film about a man who's sad and lonely / And all you gotta do is act naturally."

PC: Sounds fun!

JS: I will do that. But, then, when I first come out I sing "Hooked On A Feeling" since I am Captain Hook! (Laughs.)

PC: No way! What a funny choice! It will be fabulous.

JS: You haven't heard me do it yet, so you don't know! (Laughs.)

PC: Did you see any musicals growing up?

JS: Oh, tons. Tons. My mom loved it, so she would always bring my sister and I. Yeah, you know, I grew up with all the ones in the fifties: CAROUSEL, OKLAHOMA, MY FAIR LADY, WEST SIDE STORY, CAMELOT. Over the years, I always go and see three or four a year. I'm a great fan of Broadway and always have been. But, I never ever ever thought - sitting there in the audience or even walking out of the theater - "Gosh, I'd like to do that!" It never even dawned on me until I got the call from the CHICAGO people to do it. So, it was never on my radar screen. I loved sitting in the audience and I had no desire to be in one, and, then, it just happened.

PC: How did that happen?

JS: I guess they saw me on DANCING WITH THE STARS and that's how that came about.

PC: Would you ever play yourself in Jerry Springer: THE OPERA on Broadway?

JS: Eh, I don't know - I think that kind of ruins it.

PC: Really? Why? He doesn't sing.

JS: Well, they've asked me and I said, "I think it's better if I'm not there." I think it breaks the wall too much.

PC: Harvey Keitel played it at Carnegie Hall.

JS: Yes, he did. He was good. There was another guy who did it, too, who was good.

PC: What about David Hasselhoff?

JS: (Laughs.) Yeah, I think that role requires some subtlety... and David is too over-the-top. (Laughs.)

PC: I was just kidding! That is a brilliant role - particularly in the way that it is written. It achieved an almost dream-like, Fellini or Beckett surrealism.

JS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The conflict he deals with... was epic.

PC: It was an unforgettable show. This was a great conversation. Anything else you have going on or coming up?

JS: Oh, yeah, I am doing BAGGAGE on The Game Show Network. I love, love, love doing that.

PC: You are great on game shows.

JS: Yeah. That I love doing. You know, it's unscripted so I can just go up there and tell jokes and I really enjoy that.

PC: You should host a new MATCH GAME! You'd be awesome.

JS: (Laughs.) I'd love to.

PC: Thanks for this chat and have a great holiday.

JS: Oh, aren't you sweet! Thanks so much, Pat. This was really great. Bye now.