Interview: Stars And Creative Team of PASCAL & JULIEN Talk Juice Boxes, Catharsis, and Champagne at 24th Street Theatre

Directed by Debbie Devine with assistant director Jesús Castaños–Chima, Pascal & Julien is the tale of two quirky, annoying loners, a single man in his forties (Paul Turbiak) and a lonely child (Darby Winn), who discover the tender beauty of friendship, running through October 27th at 24th Street Theatre.

After watching Pascal & Julien, I wandered back behind the curtain to a cozy office, overlooked by monumental, gorgeous Day of the Dead Catrinas for 24th Street Theatre’s renowned Día de los Muertos festival.  With the stars of Pascal & Julien and the theatre’s creative team, we explored what it means to deeply engage children and families in theatre, how theaters can open up to the community, working with child actors, discovering authenticity and delicious subtext on stage, and the creative journey of the play in its US Premiere.

I spoke with Debbie Devine, director of Pascal & Julien and artistic director of 24th Street Theatre, Darby Winn, child star of Pascal & Julien, Paul Turbiak, adult lead of Pascal & Julien, Jesús Castaños–Chima, assistant director of Pascal & Julien, associate artistic director of 24th Street Theatre, Spanish translator, and producer of Día de los Muertos, and Jay McAdams, executive director of 24th Street Theatre.

Debbie Devine: Those green doors that you came in, which we were a little bit shut today because it was so hot, those big accordion doors? We've been here since 1996 and those doors are always open. We never close them when we're here. So people come in that who have never seen a show, but they'll come in for water or coffee.

Jay McAdams: It’s a program.

Debbie Devine: It's one of our core values.

Jay McAdams: Sometimes homeless people, USC parents, students…

Debbie Devine: People just wander in and go, hey, what's going on, what's happening here? So it's a big part of who we are and what we're about.

Everything we do, our newsletter, everything, is in Spanish and English, to make it accessible because you’re in a neighborhood here.  We have the largest Day of the Dead festival in the area to celebrate our community.

We're dedicated to families. You know, we only do a show a year because we have so much arts education that we do. Some of this play, Pascal & Julien, has some pretty profound feelings around it, but children can process that and handle that.

And so much of children's theater is we're afraid to allow them to go through the catharsis of important themes. So that's a big part of what we do. Finding content like Pascal & Julien is a challenge because we want to be able to entertain you and have you be moved or have you understand it on one level, have [children] understand it another level. So our philosophy is juice boxes and chardonnay.

Jay McAdams: Right, juice boxes and champagne. [laughter] We run the gamut.

Debbie Devine: We've never produced anything with a child, playing a child.  I mean, we served thousands of kids but we've never had a professional kid in a show, especially something like this. I mean, you saw what Darby [Winn] had to do, we have two kids that do this [Darby Winn and Jude Schwartz].  So we've never done that, but it felt to us reading this that it would have been odd to have a 20 year old playing at 12. I mean, it just wouldn't have had the same poignancy. So we had 500 casting submissions. The casting director had 500 submissions.

Is that Michael Donovan?

Debbie Devine: Yeah, Michael Donovan. So we went through a lot of the kids and these two Jude and Darby [Darby Winn and Jude Schwartz] were just terrific.  And you know, when you cast a kid, you cast the family.   Both of their families have been so supportive and so wonderful, there for them and helping them and us navigate the emotional level of this work.  The idea that children have the capacity to take in something profound is a big part of who we are and what we do.

Only France has produced Pascal & Julien and they've never produced it with a child.

Really? So, it's normally an adult actor?

Debbie Devine: We broke all the rules. [Daniel Keene, the playwright] was happy to have his US premiere and then to have it be done with a child and a man. And I think some of that is the idea that this play could be misconstrued, to make it so that we understand that this is really about a profound friendship.

So when you started this role, how did you get into it, did you feel there were parts of the character that were like you or like someone you knew? Did you just go into it from a different approach altogether?

Darby Winn: Me and my mom would talk about it because it's a hard role in a degree. He's a kid like me and asks a lot of questions. He does all this stuff, but he has a sensitive part of him like, oh, I don't know the word for it. It's like trouble. He has trouble because he doesn't have anyone.

And I was in the car with my mom a few days ago and we talked a lot about it.  My mom was telling me about her brother and that his dad was not there much. And now, now he's a much better dad, but he was really young when he had her and her brother.  And it really got to me.

All that stuff just helps.  Because it's like, imagine that you have that dad.  I don't have anyone to share with all this bad stuff. No one can hear my trauma. And this one guy who came along, Pascal, is there and I got him.  I got him, he’s someone there for me.

When you're in the character of Julien, why do you feel like you pick Pascal? Why is he special?

Darby Winn: Because he's mysterious. He isn't with anyone, just like me. Never seen him with anyone.  He’s very secretive. And when I saw him, it was a challenge. I saw something in him.

My dad's never there for me. He never asks questions after school.  This guy, Pascal, goes to the cafe every day. So he's someone you can rely on. And I felt like I just wanted to see what he would be like because he reliable. So maybe I can rely on him.

And how do you feel like your friendship with him changes over the course of the play?

Darby Winn: in the beginning, I feel like we have our differences and we don't really accept our differences. And we learn about each other, we learn about our traumas that we both have, him with his own, stuff and me, with my dad and my family.  And it bonds us together like trauma bonds.

And by the end, I was looking for a new dad and he gave me the confidence and courage to approach my dad. I never would expect my dad to even listen to what I'm saying. And when he mentioned that he has a new tie, it's like the relationship starts to come together just a little bit.

Debbie Devine: The play is just 13 scenes of words, you know, so we built this story together by understanding what those words mean and they were just so generous with all. I mean, it's a great team.  This Production Team was wonderful.  All of that rotoscope in between, all of those cartoons. We decided we wanted to build on the story, on the images, you know, what did they do in between [the scenes]? They have ice cream? Did they go to the ride a bicycle? You know, the things that what happened in between those months is what we wanted to celebrate with them.

It's a deceptively simple story.  You know, it's not a lot of words, it's not very long, yet the economy of the language is so rich and filled out with depth.  What drew me to this theater work in the first place is that they were able to execute profound artistry with very seemingly simple storytelling.

And it is so much about that about subtext. So actors that can do subtext, you know what I mean? He says the next day he was wearing a new tie and just the way Darby delivers that [line] because he knows what he's really saying. He's saying I have a connection with my father that I've never had before. That's an actor being able to do that, it's just delicious, you know.

Darby Winn: Something I learned from Debbie…I've learned a lot.

Debbie Devine: Thank you.

Darby Winn: But one of the big things is — well, there's two things. In the beginning, I've never done a play like this. I've always acted in an “acting” play.  And she [Debbie Devine] always says, don't act. Just be honest.  Which I love because it makes the character so much richer and so much easier.  And number two, she says, it's what's under the words, the words don't matter, it’s what under them.

Debbie Devine: Now don't tell that to the playwright. The words don't matter. [laughter]

Jay McAdams: That's off the record, that's off the record. [laughter]

Paul, how did you approach it when you started? Was there something that drew you to the character? Did you relate to him? Did he remind you of anyone you knew? Was there anything that you used to dig into him?

Paul Turbiak: My responsibility as an actor always is to not to pull the character to myself, but to approach the character on their own terms.  With this character, Pascal, there was something that I could certainly relate to about him.  Similarly, I’m a man who's not married, who doesn't have a family.  And there's something about this phase in life, where life does not turn out as you imagine.  There's something about the safety of it.  Simplified.  To not dream as much, to not dream as big, to not include too many people because then there are less opportunities to be hurt.  And he's made a life that for himself.  It’s very, very satisfying.  And it's very, very small.

And then of course, what happens is this character [Julien] comes in and just disrupts it, which is annoying and frustrating and messy. The experience of these scenes over the course of a year, I also love that.  It's not just a play over the course of two hours or two days or two weeks, but we get to see these characters grow over a year.  We are capable of some change in an hour maybe or a week or a month, but in Pascal & Julien we actually have a year to see how the those subtle and profound shifts happen in each of these characters.

Pascal recognizing that his life is better when there are people in it.  That he is capable of love and relationships and feelings that he had long since written off, which was what was really exciting for me.

Debbie Devine: To me it is just an incredible thing to be able to imagine that you could feel what a parent would feel, a little bit, by opening your heart enough.

Paul Turbiak: Especially in this time.  We're all still recovering from the past several years.  And in a lot of ways, a lot of us are still really shut off.  And it is inconvenient to open yourself up to people and connection and relationship.  And it's so necessary.

And we do that in theatre.

Debbie Devine: We're lucky to be able to do this work and, you know, and that you're here to share it with others for us.

I'd love to go around the room and ask everybody what your biggest challenge was while working on this. Maybe something practical or artistic or creative.

Jay McAdams: I think it's funny, we were talking today about how usually at most of our openings, you know, you're basically ready, but there's still a list as long as your arm of tiny little things.  Could we clean this up? Could we paint that?  Whatever, you know, just little, little things. And so, you know, usually in an opening, there’s 40 things we're trying to do here in the next two hours. And today we were kind of lollygagging around and realizing, you know, the show is really done this.  So the show came together beautifully. I think the casting was the hardest part.

Debbie Devine: That would be my biggest challenge, is the recommendation of an agent, not do this with a child.

Really?

Debbie Devine: She said to me, do not do this with the child.

Why?

Debbie Devine: “Because they can't handle the complexity of the part.”  I really had to talk to everybody about it and could we do it?  This is risky. 

Jesús Castaños–Chima: And also because you talk to a kid in a different way because, you know, you need to find the words.  iI’s not the same when you are directing an adult and, you know, you just go and tell whatever comes out from your mind. But with a kid, you need to find the right words.  But more than a challenge I think it was a gift.  I was working next to Debbie and these two kids and Paul.  I really loved working with them.

Oh, that’s wonderful to hear. What about you, Paul? Did you have any challenges in getting into the character or in the production at large?

Paul Turbiak: I think with a character like this who is on the surface so withdrawn, as an actor, I think subconsciously I was trying to make him likable, to really show my emotion. And, you know, working with them [Debbie Devine and Jesús Castaños–Chima] was great and being those eyes to say, you don’t need to do that, no, less, don't smile. And then later on, ok, smile.

Debbie Devine: And then he would say to me, in my contract is a quota for smiles, I have only five smiles. And we used them all up. [laughter]

Paul Turbiak: I’m fortunate to have several friends who have kids, I have experience with kids, I've worked with kids in arts education, but Pascal does not have that same experience. And so I recognize there was one time where I was putting myself more on Julien’s level and I realized no, Pascal would not do that. He would stand there and talk [down] to them. He doesn't have that sensitivity, that sensibility. To put it simply, I had to unlearn a lot of things to become this character, and not make him into my image, but to really play him as far as who he was on the page.

I think instinctually everybody would do that and try to make him likable.  But the fact that Pascal is so crusty and cranky and a little bit obnoxious is actually kind of endearing, it’s weird but, he's actually very endearing just the way he is.

Debbie Devine: And you see him through Julien’s eyes. Because the language is so sparse and careful and brilliant, one of the keys was, what do we have in common? And the kid says, well, we're both annoying. [laughter]

I love that line.

Debbie Devine: And that was like, ok, that's who we know we are.

Paul Turbiak: And that's why she cast both of us. [laughter]

Darby Winn: We’re both very annoying. [laughter]

Paul Turbiak: How about you bud?

Darby Winn: I worked with an amazing actor and directors and producers and everyone. So they all gave me a lot of advice, because I'm still new to the industry.  In the beginning, it was very weird because this kid, Julien, is a lot like me and a lot not like me.  The fact that I wouldn't be that out to people.  I’m not like, not to say, disrespectful, but like a little bit in a way that Julien is. So it was being like a different side of me.  Debbie taught me to be comfortable in that way and that it's only for now.  Instead of thinking you are the character, you ARE the character.  A lot of times what you say is, stop thinking and just do it. It will come out the way it comes out.

Debbie Devine: That is the secret of the art form. Just let it go.

This is my first time at 24th Street Theatre.  What's the heart, the texture, to you of this place?

Jesús Castaños–Chima: We are always, always open and we always welcome people with water, sodas, coffee. So anybody, anybody can walk in.  That's what I love doing with this place, because we do more than theatre, more the plays.

Jay McAdams: We have a tagline, more than just plays

Jesús Castaños–Chima: And we really care about that, community.

Debbie Devine: I mean, we're not kidding. We do actually have a line item for feral cats.

Jay McAdams: We really do. [laughter]

Debbie Devine: So if you want to make a donation for feral cats…[more laughter] It’s just so critical to us that we welcome the community. I think of us the secular church on the corner.

Jay McAdams: We had two families come to us last week and asked for help.  You know, two families having hard times with cancer and different things and asking for our help, which is really not the norm for theaters.  We're so honored that that is the case.

Debbie Devine: That we can be here for our community.  What's risky about that is there's a concept of community theater where everything is a little bit degraded, but it's ok because you're there for the community.  For us, it’s just the opposite.  We're there for the community. So they deserve excellence.

We want to push the envelope because we honor kids’ brains and sensibilities and they deserve it. And so that's a big part of what we do. This community serves excellence. So we try to deliver it.

Jay McAdams: The children's theater tends to be the place they cut corners.

Debbie Devine: You know, the B team.

Jay McAdams: Yeah, most theaters would have kind of the B team do it.

Jesús Castaños–Chima: But we do children’s theatre for adults.

Jay McAdams: Which is a brilliant business model, brilliant. [laughter]. My mother took me to see Johnny Carson when I was seven. My mom took me because I liked Johnny Carson on TV.  But I remember looking down the aisle at all the grownups, people just crying, they were laughing so hard.  I remember thinking he's very dirty right now and he's very funny and he is killing it, look at these people.  I don't quite get it. But what I know is, this is greatness. I'm seeing greatness.  You know, he's even better than on TV, because this is where the real stuff is.  And we think about that a lot with kids.

Debbie Devine: We keep the dirty jokes out of it. [laughter] But to give kids something that challenges them. We don't believe they have to understand everything. You know, they have to feel everything, but they don't have to understand it. That will be something that they can talk about.  And that's what theater should be about.

Note: this interview has been edited for length and clarity

Photo by Jennie McInnis

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