Gov. Chris Christie Visits NBC's MEET THE PRESS

Yesterday's MEET THE PRESS WITH David Gregory on NBC featured interviews with Romney supporter Gov. Chris Christie (R-NJ) and White House senior adviser David Plouffe; a roundtable conversation with conservative activist and founder of the Faith and Freedom Coalition Ralph Reed, Fmr. Gov. Ed Rendell (D-PA), the BBC's Katty Kay, NBC News political director and chief White House correspondent Chuck Todd; and the latest live from Afghanistan with NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel.

Below is a transcript of Sunday's program.

David Gregory: Good morning - with both sides in full preparation mode for Wednesday's first presidential debate, the struggling romney campaign is recalibrating his message to better connect with voters on the economy and to attack the president on his handling of the latest foreign policy crisis. The evolving explanation of what exactly happened in Libya when our U.S. ambassador was killed more than two weeks ago, on September 11th. We'll hear from a top Obama adviser, David Plouffe in a moment but first, joining me now, the Republican governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie. Governor, welcome back to Meet the Press.

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Happy to be back, David. Good morning.

David Gregory:
Let's look at the state of the race. The key battleground states, nine of them. We've done polling in all and here's the result. In all nine, it's Obama advantage across the board. Look at Ohio, plus seven. Look at Virginia, plus five. These are key states. Is the race over?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Absolutely not. And that happened pretty quickly, right, David? I mean, you saw the change in those polls happen very quickly. And I'm here to tell you this morning, it can happen very quickly back the other way. And I think the beginning of that is Wednesday night when Governor Romney for the first time gets on the same stage with the president of the United States and people can make a direct comparison about them and their visions for the future. And Wednesday night's the restart of this campaign. And I think you're going to see those numbers start to move right back in the other direction.

David Gregory:
How do you restart a campaign, Governor, at that last moment, where you can reach tens of millions of people? Why isn't it too late to believe that the presidential debates, after you announce your running mate, after you have your own convention (including keynoter Chris Christie) that you can restart with the presidential debates?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Absolutely. Because you're going to have tens of millions of people for the very first time, David, really tuning in and paying attention to this race. And also, for the first time, you're going to have them be able to make a direct, side-by-side comparison.

Remember, at the end of the day, campaigns are about the candidates. And they're going to be able to see these two candidates next to each other, debating each other. And Governor Romney I know is going to do a great job on Wednesday night laying out his vision for America's future and making the contrast between he and the president of the United States.

David Gregory:
As you well know, Governor Romney has been heavily criticized from his own side, conservative critics, and the course has been pretty striking. The latest that got a lot of attention, Charles Krauthammer in the Washington Post on Friday, and this was the headline: "Go large, Mitt." And the argument was that he was not really creating a clear contrast. He was not talking in detail about what a Romney presidency would mean. How does he go large at this point, Governor?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Well, listen, I think he just has to lay out his plan and his vision. Listen, I like Charles and the other folks who are laying out critical columns right now, but the fact of the matter is that in the end this is going to be about Governor Romney over the next four or five weeks laying that vision out for folks.

And, you know, folks like us obsess about this stuff, David. But I've got to tell you something: The general public that I speak to in New Jersey and elsewhere are just beginning to really tune into this race. And so they're going to start tuning in on Wednesday night, and when they do, Governor Romney's lay out his vision for a better and greater America, for greater opportunity for all of our citizens. And I think that's when you're going to see this race really start to tighten and then move in Governor Romney's direction.

David Gregory:
Up until now, Governor, he has failed to enumerate any of the deductions that he would eliminate in order to make the math work on his deficit plan and his tax plan. Are we going to get those details in the course of the debates?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Well, you know, David, I wish you guys were just as tough on the president. The president says he's going to create a million new manufacturing jobs; doesn't say how he's going to do it. He says he's going to reduce the long-term debt and deficit by $4 trillion; doesn't say how he's going to do it.

I mean, you know, let's be fair here. Governor Romney has laid out a direction and a vision for the direction of this country. He's not an accountant. He's not going to go line by line, as much as you'd like him to do, through the budget. But let's hold the president to the same standard and criticize him as well.

Because how's he going to create a million new manufacturing jobs, David? He hasn't told anybody the specifics of that. How's he going to reduce $4 trillion in debt? We're still waiting to hear what he thinks about Simpson-Bowles, which he commissioned. I mean, he's been the president, and hasn't given us specifics. So let's be fair here.

David Gregory:
So that's really the approach, then? You're a former prosecutor, you understand how the courtroom works. Mitt Romney is the defense lawyer here, he's going to say, the prosecution, President Obama hasn't made his case. And that his record isn't enough for reelection, "And I'm not going to give you all the details of what I'll do, what a Romney presidency would mean. Make your choice based on the president." That's the plan?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
No, no. Listen, what the plan is is that the public will have plenty of detail and information to be able to make a judgment on Governor Romney and what his plan is for the future. But let's look at what the president's saying as well. And you're right, David, in this respect. The president has had four years to lay this out, and now a campaign, and the president's just trying to run out the clock.

He desperately wants to run out the clock with platitudes which sound nice, and I give him that. The president's very good at that. But in the end, I think that both sides have to look at this campaign and say, "What are we going to lay out over the next 36 days?" And that's I think what's really important. And I think Governor Romney will lay out some very important points over the next 36 days that are going to make people believe once and for all that America can be great again, not just staggering along here economically as we've been doing.

David Gregory:
Earlier this year, before he was the official nominee, you criticized Mitt Romney. You talked about his shortcomings, a failure to connect with people as a candidate. That criticism has not gone away. And then you had his secretly recorded speech at a fundraiser where he talked about the 47% believing that they were victims. The Obama campaign has made an ad that puts some pictures to those words. I want to play a portion of it and get you to respond.

(Videotape)

ROMNEY: "There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what ..."
"... who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it ..."
"... And they will vote for this president no matter what ..."
"... And so my job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."

(End videotape)

David Gregory:
Governor, how does he overcome that? How does anybody buy that he cares about 100% of the country after those remarks?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Well, first of all, David, let me make clear: Where I am, I couldn't see the images in the ad, I could just hear the voiceover, so I can't comment specifically on the ad. But let me say this. Here's what I know Governor Romney believes, because I've spoken to him.

He believes that every American has to have skin in the game. He believes that every American's going to want to be part of a shared sacrifice in order to bring our country, and its people, to have another opportunity for greatness. And that's what he's really talking about. Was that comment in-artfully put? Absolutely. I've said it publicly, Governor Romney said it publicly. But in the end, we certainly don't want to judge people by one in-artful comment.

I mean, this is the same president who said he had campaigned in all 57 states. So, I mean, I think we understand that the president doesn't know that there are actually 50 states in America not 57. Every once in a while in the campaign, as a candidate, I can tell you, you're going to say something that just comes out of your mouth the wrong way.

But here's what he believes. He believes that every American should have the opportunity for greatness. He believes that every American should be part of a shared sacrifice to fix the problems that are besieging our country right now, and that everyone should have skin in that game.

I believe the American people will rise to that challenge and will elect Mitt Romney because he's the one articulating that challenge, not this happy talk that the President's giving us that things are bumps in the road, things are just small problems. The country knows we have big problems, David, that we're not confronting. And the president's happy talk for the next 36 days is not going to anesthetize the American people.

David Gregory:
You acknowledge though that this has done real damage, this 47% comment, not simply a misstatement. This was a pretty thoughtful accounting of a government-dependent society, in Romney's view. You admit it's done political damage?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
No, I don't acknowledge that, David. What I say is that, if you look at the context of his statements all across this campaign, that what Governor Romney stands for is shared sacrifice for the American people. What he stands for is everyone having skin in the game and working together to create opportunities for greatness for our children and grandchildren.

And, you know, if we continue to emphasize this then of course, over the course of time, if that's all people-- but that's not all they're going to hear because guess what? On Wednesday night, Mitt Romney's going to be standing on the same stage as the president of the United States. And I am telling you, David, come Thursday morning, the entire narrative of this race is going to change.

David Gregory:
Let me ask you about some nuts and bolts that you say we're going to hear from Governor Romney. Here was a portion of your speech as the keynoter that you gave in Tampa, and I'll show it to you.
(Videotape/August 29, 2012)

GOV. CHRISTIE: We believe it is possible to forge bipartisan compromise, and stand up for our conservative principles.

(End videotape)

David Gregory:
You understand there's a great appetite for compromise in the country. When it comes to dealing with our debt, this is a nominee, in Mitt Romney, who talks about extra tax cuts, going beyond the extension of the Bush tax cuts. He talks about raising defense spending. He rejects a ten-to-one ratio of spending cuts to tax increases. Simpson-Bowles, you mentioned them. They say the math simply doesn't add up in the Romney plan, and he won't tell us how he thinks it does.

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Well, listen, the country is hungry for bipartisan compromise, David, I agree with you, especially after the last four years of intense partisanship from this White House. And Mitt Romney is the only candidate in this race who has a record of showing he knows as an executive how to forge bipartisan compromise.

As the governor of Massachusetts, over 85% of his legislature Democrat? He made things happen. And he will make things happen as president of the United States, and will forge the right type of compromise to get this done. And that's the way it's going to work.

David Gregory:
Do you think that this Governor Romney should be in a situation where he's actually prepared to deal with revenue, to raise revenue, to go against his party if it's part of a package that achieves compromise and the kind of reforms that are necessary, along the lines of Simpson-Bowles, which you mention?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Let me tell you what we did in New Jersey, David. What we did in New Jersey is, first, you've got to convince people that you've actually done everything you need to do on the spending side before you start asking people for more money. And the fact is no one believes, when you're adding $1.5 trillion in debt every year of the four years of this presidency, that we've done everything we can do on the spending side.

So I think the first thing Governor Romney would have to do as President Romney is prove that he's serious on the spending side. You need to deal with that issue first. When he does, he will then have credibility with the American people to be able to solve any problems that are on his desk.

David Gregory:
And that means even raising revenue, if that's the right thing to do; raising taxes, if it's necessary?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
No, listen. What it means is that he's going to have credibility to address the issues and forge bipartisan compromise. And so the fact of the matter is, as he looks at these problems, he's going to look at them much differently than the president of the United States has looked at them, David. And, you know, we look at this, and you're asking him about Simpson-Bowles; how about asking the man who commissioned Simpson-Bowles how he feels about Simpson-Bowles?

David Gregory:
I--

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
And, you know, he won't answer the question, but he puts out a nice two-minute ad that says he's going to reduce debt by $4 trillion but never tells us how. He's going to create a million manufacturing jobs but never tells us how. The fact of the matter is, David, when I hear you talk about Mitt Romney, I think you're talking about President Obama.

David Gregory:
I want to end with this. As you know, political reviews are tough things sometimes, and there was a tough review for you as the keynoter at the Republican convention. This was from Politico, John Harris and Tim Mak, in reviewing your speech.

The headline on it: "Christie delivers a prime-time dud." They write, "There is no mistaking what a successful keynote speech from Chris Christie would have looked like and sounded like. There would have been an electric reaction from the crowd in the convention hall. It would have been followed by waves of effusive media commentary about how people had just heard the future of the Republican Party.

"Judged be these standards, there is also no mistaking what the New Jersey governor delivered instead, a prime-time belly flop, when he notably failed to clear either over those two high bars." Are you still the future of this party, do you believe?

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Well, Mitt Romney's the future of this party, first of all. He's going to be elected president on November 6th, and then from there he's going to lead our country back to greatness. And believe me, if I took seriously the judgment of my speeches by Jim VandeHei and John Harris, you know, I would not be in this business for very long.

David Gregory:
All right. Governor Chris Christie, we're going to leave it there. Thank you, as always.

CHRIS CHRISTIE:
Hey, great to be with you, David.

David Gregory:
Let me now turn to the president's senior advisor, David Plouffe. Mr. Plouffe, welcome back.

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Morning, David.

David Gregory:
Well, you heard Governor Christie raising expectations here. He says come Thursday morning, the entire narrative of this race is going to change after debates. It looks like Romney's expecting to have a good showing.

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Yes, I think Governor Christie is just articulating what Governor Romney's campaign believes: that they're going to change this race fundamentally. They often talk about how this is going to be like 1980 and Reagan surged to a huge lead, so that's really the marker here. They've set it out. They expect to come out of this with the race fundamentally changed.

Now, what does that mean? If it's going to fundamentally change, that means in seven or ten days from now, you'll see states like Ohio tied, states like Iowa tied, because that's what really matters here. So they've set the bar quite high. Now, challengers tend to benefit from debates. We had expected all along that Governor Romney will have a good night. He's prepared more than any candidate in history, and he's shown himself to be a very, very good debater through the years.

So we understand that this is an important moment. We're just going to continue to make the case we have throughout the campaign, through the convention, to the American people. Governor Romney, they've said that he's practiced zingers and lines for months and months and months, so we're sure he'll put on quite a show Wednesday. But that's the standard they've set, which is, "We want this race fundamentally changed after this debate." And we'll all be able to measure that.

David Gregory:
You played a huge role in 2008 in debate prep. What have you told the president? "Hey, look, there's an incumbent trap here. Don't fall into it." What have you told him he's got to do right here?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, I think he's aware of that, which history suggests, even in 2004, that challengers benefit from this. Being on the same stage has traditionally benefited. So I think the president's view is he's not worried about zingers and lines. He's got time with the American people to explain to them his case for reelection, about what he wants to do on the economy, how we're going to build an economy focused on the middle class.

That's what we've done through this whole campaign, there's been an consistency through it. Day after day after day just trying to explain to people where we've been, where we need to go, how that contrasts with our opponent. And he thinks there's a clear choice for the middle class of this country.

David Gregory:
Is this race over?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Absolutely not.

David Gregory:
But you don't look like a guy who thinks that they're going to come back and tie it in Ohio.

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, 3:00 in the morning, I wasn't sleeping because you worry about everything. So, no. No. First of all, there's some benefit from going through this before. There's going to be ups or downs. We know the news media is anxious to write the Romney recovery and comeback story.

So we understand that, first of all, we're not going to win battleground states by 10-12 points. This race is going to tighten. We've built the presidential campaign with the belief that it's going to come down to a few votes in a few states, so this race is going to tighten. We do have an edge right now in a lot of battleground states, and it's important to understand the election's happening right now. People started voting in Iowa this week, they will in Ohio next week, people requesting absentee ballots.

We like what we're seeing in those numbers. We think we've got the numbers to win an election. But it is going to be exceedingly tough at the end here. We expect it to tighten. And so our entire campaign is built under the premise, listen, we got 53% of the vote in 2008 under ideal circumstances. So we've always believed it's going to be closer than 2008. And so I expect that what you're going to see in the weeks to come is, you know, this race will tighten a little bit.

David Gregory:
I want to talk about some issues, including a foreign policy crisis in Libya, and the fact that this administration has changed its tune when it comes to describing the raid on our compound, on our embassy in Libya, that killed our ambassador, Chris Stevens and others, of course, on the ground. On September 16th, the U.N. ambassador for this administration came on this program and this is how she described whether or not this was a deliberate act, a terrorist attack. This is what Susan Rice said at that time.

(Videotape/September 16, 2012)

MS. RICE: let me tell you-- the best information we have at present. First of all, there's an FBI investigation which is ongoing. And we look to that investigation to give us the definitive word as to what transpired. But putting together the best information that we have available to us today our current assessment is that what happened in Benghazi was in fact initially a spontaneous reaction to what had just transpired hours before in Cairo, almost a copycat of-- of the demonstrations against our facility in Cairo, which were prompted, of course, by the video.

(End videotape)

David Gregory:
There was a caveat there, she said the F.B.I. was still investigating, but the thought was it was a spontaneous reaction. A couple of days before that, the Libyan president said no. In fact, Al Qaeda was behind this attack. And then days later, after Ambassador Rice is on this program and other programs, the president's spokesman Jay Carney says this: "Yeah, it is I think self-evident that what happened in Benghazi was a terrorist attack." Well, if it was self-evident then why didn't the president come out and call this exactly what it was, an act of terror on the anniversary of 9/11?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, this is an event of great interest obviously to the public, to the news media. Information was being provided real time. Obviously you're going to know more two weeks after an event than a week after an event. And Ambassador Rice, that was the information from the intelligence community. It was the same information provided for Congress.

The reason obviously we now have stipulated this as a terrorist is that came from the intelligence agencies. So as information's become available, this investigation has continued. We're obviously making that information known. And I think the important thing, what the American people want to understand, is are we taking the right steps to secure our personnel, our ambassadors--

David Gregory:
No, but there's also a question about whether you call this what it is on the day that it happens. Jay Carney said it was self-evident that this was a terrorist attack. These are people who came to a demonstration with weapons, and security was an issue at the compound. Why not call it what it was?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, I think now, based on the recommendations and the investigation of the intelligence community, they made the decision to conclude that this was a terrorist attack. In the days afterward, that was not clear. And so, you know, this obviously was a very, very fast-moving period of time. As I said, there's a great deal of interest in this.

So we provided information that we received from the intelligence community as we got it. The intelligence community put out a lengthy document on Friday that explained the timeline here. And I think that in the days afterward, it wasn't clear this was a terrorist attack. Their investigation was conducted, and as they got more information, that's the determination they made.

David Gregory:
The president has said as recently as May of this year that Al Qaeda has not had a chance to rebuild, that Al Qaeda has been defeated. There is an election on, as we've been talking about, and the president's challenger said plain and simple, the president failed to level with the American people and call this a terrorist attack because you had to be concerned about another terrorist attack from Al Qaeda in the Middle East after the president said that Al Qaeda had been defeated.

DAVID PLOUFFE:
That is preposterous, and really offensive, to suggest that. As information was received from the intelligence community, it was distributed. This president's record on terrorism takes a back seat to no one. We obviously took out their number one leader in Osama bin Laden; the leadership of Al Qaeda has been decimated, just as the president promised in 2008.

And by the way, in 2008 the president said he would go into Pakistan to go after Osama bin Laden. Governor Romney said he wouldn't. Governor Romney said it was tragic that we ended the Iraq war. One of the reasons that Al Qaeda strengthened during the last decade is our focus was too much on Iraq. So we're happy to have this debate, and we'll have it obviously for the duration of this campaign.

David Gregory:
Was this an intelligence failure?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
No. This was an event, obviously a complex event. We're only talking a matter of weeks here. And so as information was arrived at, as determinations were made, that was shared with the American people. And I think, again, the focus needs to be how do we make sure that our facilities and our ambassadors and our personnel are secured going forward? And that's what the focus is on.

David Gregory:
As you know the Chairman of the homeland security committee has called for Susan Rice to resign. Does the president have 100% confidence in Susan Rice?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Absolutely. She's done a terrific job for this country, for this administration.

David Gregory:
What about the broader point here: Security is so bad in Benghazi that the F.B.I. can't even go in and investigate. What about the fact that there are talk of military options to find Ambassador Stevens' killers? What is America doing to work its will to change the trajectory in Libya?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, obviously, I'm not going to speak for the F.B.I. But I think that the key thing here: We live in a dangerous world, obviously, with threats out there. And we're going to make sure that the appropriate steps are taken to enhance security, make sure our personnel and ambassadors are secure.

David Gregory:
Is there a military option for the United States to lead the way in Libya to track down his killers?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
I'm not going to speak to that. But the president was very clear the day after this event, this tragedy, that we are going to make sure that these killers are brought to justice.

David Gregory:
Was it inappropriate for him to go to a fundraiser the day after this attack? Now, in retrospect, knowing that it was a terrorist attack, inappropriate for him to engage in politics as usual?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
No, the president obviously is 24/7 engaged in the job of the presidency. He's spent an enormous amount of time in these weeks, by the way, in the aftermath of this terrible tragedy. So absolutely not. A president is on call 24/7, and that just comes with the job.

David Gregory:
24/7, but apparently not during U.N. meetings. As the New York Post highlighted here, a question about whether there was a snub not meeting with the Israeli leader. The president's on The View, "Disses U.N. world leaders to gab with the gals of The View," that was the headline in the New York Post with their own point of view there.

But is he not performing all the critical roles of the presidency, particularly with a foreign policy crisis? With so many questions about management of the Middle East, when you have a key United Nations gathering, not to meet with world leaders, including Netanyahu, at a time of so much concern over Iran?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
This president has been obviously in constant contact throughout these four years with world leaders. He's obviously been in deep consultation with Prime Minister Netanyahu. Obviously our administration's been in deep consultation with the defense and intelligence agencies in Israel.

So this president has been very, very focused on strengthening our alliances. He's built an unprecedented global effort in terms of sanctions against Iran. So this president has led, and I think the question-- we do have an election coming up. This president committed a few things to the American people in 2008: He was restore and rebuild alliances. He would end the war in Iraq. He would find and make sure that bin Laden was brought to justice and we could degrade Al Qaeda. He's done all those things.

And by the way, let's talk about Governor Romney's response during this. In the hours as these attacks became known in Libya, and the assault on our embassy in Egypt, Mitt Romney throws out some half-baked statement. And I think that's one of the reasons why we're--

David Gregory:
Wait, but the United States government had to also disavow its own statement that came out of the embassy in Cairo.

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well--

David Gregory:
That some might also call half-baked and had to be revised, did it not?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Presidential campaigns are a window. And I think it raises, just as the 47% comment did, questions in the shadow of the election: Can I trust this person to be our commander-in-chief and our president?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Are you saying that Mitt Romney cannot be trusted by the American people?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, I think that the American people are going to make that determination. But I think his behavior during that incident was not just questioned by people like me; it was broadly questioned.

David Gregory:
I want to ask one other economic point here. The president in Virginia Beach, Virginia, on Thursday talking about his approach to the economy and fixing the debt. This is what he said.

(Videotape/Thursday)

President Obama: During campaign season, you always hear a lot about patriotism. Well, you know what, it's time for a new economic patriotism -- an economic patriotism rooted in the belief that growing our economy begins with a strong and thriving middle class.

(End videotape)

David Gregory:
Invoking patriotism there. Just trying to be clear: So, raising taxes on wealthier Americans, the president considers that patriotic. I assume he also thinks sacrifice is patriotic. And yet, he's not spending much time talking specifically about what he'd do, like how he would cut the Medicare program to make it solvent-- beyond the cuts that he's talked about, and when Simpson-Bowles says he needs much more dramatic cuts. So framing this as patriotism: It's about taxing the wealthy but not talking about where the American people should sacrifice?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, first of all, the economic patriot, he was talking about specifically bringing jobs back to America, rebuilding our manufacturing sector so we're sending products all around the world stamped with "Made in the U.S.A." And I think really rebuilding that middle class so that we are manufacturing things here, we're exporting things from here, and we're not rewarding those who ship jobs overseas.

He's been incredibly specific. First of all, we have a deficit plan. It's a $4 trillion plan. It's got health care savings comparable to Simpson-Bowles. Mitt Romney doesn't have a deficit plan; he's got a plan to cut taxes for millionaires and billionaires. And one of the things that will be interesting Wednesday is he'll finally explain how his math adds up.

He's got a $5 trillion tax cut, on top of the $1 trillion to extend the Bush tax cuts, and another $2 trillion in defense spending that our military leaders say they don't need. $8 trillion. He says he's not going to add to the deficit. So if he's not going to add to the deficit, boy, the middle class better watch out because they're going to pay the burden if he's elected president because the hole's just too big. And it will be interesting Wednesday. So if he says he's not going to burden the middle class, then he's going to blow a hole in the deficit.

David Gregory:
Will we see President Obama here on Meet the Press before election day?

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Well, there's 37 days left, so we'll stay in contact about it.

David Gregory:
All right. We hope to see him here. Mr. Plouffe, thank you as always.

DAVID PLOUFFE:
Thank you, David.

David Gregory:
And coming up here, we'll talk more about the first debate. What are the stakes for both campaigns? The roundtable will get into it.

David Gregory:
Joining me, anchor of BBC's World News America, Katty Kay; our chief White House correspondent and political director, Chuck Todd; the founder and Chairman of the Faith in Freedom Coalition, Ralph Reed; and the former Democratic governor of Pennsylvania, Ed Rendell. Welcome to all of you. So much to get to in this campaign, the big debate starting here, Chuck, on Wednesday. But you're looking at the map, and that's what the Romney campaign is looking at as they look to restart this campaign, as Chris Christie said.

CHUCK TODD:
Right. Nine battleground states. Here they are. One of them of course we've already moved into the "lean Obama" category. But as you pointed out in the interview with Chris Christie, we've polled in all of them over the last couple of weeks. The president has leads ranging from anywhere from two to eight points.

But what was interesting, we asked a few other questions, including job approval rating, Romney favorability, and who wins on the economy. In three states, the president had a job approval rating of 49 or above. Romney's unfavorable rating was higher than his favorable rating. And the president led Romney on the economy in three of those states: Iowa, Ohio, New Hampshire.

In just one state did you have the president's job approval rating 48 or lower, did you have Romney right-side up in his favorable rating, and did you have Romney winning on the issue of the economy. That's North Carolina. So do you look at it that way? And you go to our map to 270, what does that mean? And you put those four states into the respective categories and look at this: Four short. 265, four short of the 270. Romney, a long way to go. Has to sweep the rest.

We're looking at five left in the battleground: Florida, Virginia, Wisconsin, Colorado, Nevada. Now, this is where, if Romney does do what Chris Christie said he's going to do, the first places you're going to see it are in those five states that are left.

David Gregory:
So here's the question, Ralph Reed: That's a lot of movement that has to take place to overcome where the campaign is. And yet, you heard Chris Christie say it this morning on this program: We're going to have a new dynamic come Thursday morning, the result of the first debate.

RALPH REED:
Well, look, I think first of all, there's been a lot of up and down. There's been a lot of back and forth. The one thing that hasn't changed, David, is that today in the Gallup poll, Obama's job approval is under 50. And job approval is the single best predictor of an incumbent president's ballot performance. I think that's number one.

I think number two, I wouldn't hang too much on a single poll. I mean, remember, on this day in 2000, Al Gore was ahead of George W. Bush by two points. Bush was leading him by about three points going into the last weekend. It went all the way to the Supreme Court.

At this point in 1980, Carter was leading Reagan by four. There was a Gallup with five days left that had him up by six. So I'm not particularizing this to Chuck, but the pollsters and the press don't decide who shows up. The people who decide who shows up are the people who are knocking on doors, ringing doorbells, making phone calls. And I think there's going to be a lot of surprises--

David Gregory:
But Ed Rendell--

RALPH REED:
--come election day.

David Gregory:
--a lot of Republicans, like Ralph, like to go back to the Reagan race. The difference is, as I've discussed this week with some pollsters, he was 20 points up after his convention. We had seen his ability to create wide swings. We haven't seen that in this race. We're in a much more polarized time in the electorate, are we not?

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
No question. And Ralph's right, to some extent, about the polls. But, look, we all know that the challenger gets a big bump in the first debate, there's no question about it. Just appearing on the stage with the president, looking presidential. And, boy, Mitt Romney looks presidential. He's going to get a big bump. Kerry was down by eight points before the first debate and it became even all the way through.

And Governor Romney's a good debater. He won almost every debate in the Republican primaries, with the exception of, I think, South Carolina. So I expect that there will be movement. If there's no movement, as Chuck says, in the polls two of three days after this debate, if those figures in the battleground states stay the same, it really is over.

David Gregory:
But Katty, this constant complaint among conservatives about Romney, why is he losing, has been what the question is all along. And Charles Krauthammer, I mentioned his column on Friday before. Here's a little bit more of the substance of it, where he writes, "It makes you think how far ahead Romney would be if he were actually running a campaign. His unwillingness to go big, to go for the larger argument, is simply astonishing.

"For six months, he's been matching Obama small ball for small ball. A hit-and-run critique here, a slogan-of-the-week there. His only momentum came when he chose Paul Ryan and seemed ready to engage on the big stuff: Medicare, entitlements, tax reform, national solvency, a restructured welfare state. Yet, he has since retreated to the small and safe. When you're behind, however, safe is fatal. Even his counterpunching has gone miniature."

KATTY KAY:
Yes. I mean, this reminds me a little bit of the McCain campaign back in 2008, in those days at the end when you felt like the campaign was kind of grasping at every new ornament that it found on the tree. I mean, it's being distracted. One week, it seems to be Libya; the next day, it seems to be Medicare; the next day, it's whether the president has said something about "bump in the road."

And I think for voters, it's very confusing to have these very short-term responses in the Romney campaign. Now, of course every campaign has to have a rapid response. But usually, that should augment what is the overall strategy, it shouldn't become the strategy.

(OVERTALK)

KATTY KAY:
They're trying to win each news cycle rather than win the election.

CHUCK TODD:
They've been chasing news cycles. And not only that, you know, when he was in Virginia, he talked about defense cuts. You know, that's what direct mail is for. That's not for your candidate to do that. That's what surprised me a little bit, is that Romney when-- and I think what the Krauthammer critique is getting at: It's not that it's just small ball by the campaign. Tactically, you should do some of these things in certain states you talk. But the candidate himself amplifying it, and making it your entire message of that day, just seemed a missed opportunity.

RALPH REED:
Yes, I don't agree with Krauthammer in this respect. I mean, first of all, he's my favorite columnist in the world. But in this particular sense, I think it underestimates just what a good candidate Barack Obama is and how ruthlessly disciplined and capable his campaign is.
Now, remember, this is a guy who was a state senator in Illinois four years before he beat like a drum the best political machine the Democratic Party has seen since L.B.J., namely the Clinton machine. As a challenger, he won by, you know, 7-8%. And he's got a lot of money, he's got the power of incumbency, he's got Air Force One, he's got the ability to set the message of the day from the White House.

David Gregory:
So Obama's beating Romney. Romney is not beating himself.

RALPH REED:
Yes. Well, what I'm saying is--

David Gregory:
Is that your--

RALPH REED:
--anytime a challenger has to clear the bar of credibility to sit behind that desk and make those decisions, historically, David, challengers close late.

(OVERTALK)

RALPH REED:
--by the way, it isn't just 1980.

David Gregory:
What about connecting to people like me, right? That's the poll question. Isn't that where Romney's struggling? I mean, he's out there talking this week about, "Well, tax cuts aren't going to be cut too far." He's going out there, Governor, saying, "Look, remember, I insured everybody. All the children are insured in Massachusetts." That's got to drive some conservatives crazy because that's what they don't like about the Obama presidency.

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
Well, and the actual thing is he should have been doing that in June. You know the Etch-a-Sketch strategy, he should have followed it. As soon as he looked up the nomination, he should have realized the conservatives, the right wing is coming out to vote against President Obama. He should have, at that point, started to drive his campaign towards the independents, towards suburban voters in Philadelphia, in Cleveland, in places like that, and he didn't do it.

For those of us who served with him as governors, we're shocked that he's been such a poor candidate, because he was a good governor. He was a good governor. He did some very impressive things. And he's made every mistake in the book. So you can't just subscribe to the fact that President Obama's been a good candidate. He's a good candidate with a very tough economy.

KATTY KAY:
But to some extent, those were problems that were hard for him to overcome. You know, the way he could have humanized himself, one of the ways, was to talk about his religion. That was very difficult during the course of this campaign, with a conservative evangelical base that was suspicious of Mormonism. The other thing he could have done was to talk about his record as governor. Well, one of the main things of his record of governor was health care reform in Massachusetts. That also was--

(OVERTALK)

KATTY KAY:
--very hard for him to--

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
--he's talking about it now. He should have talked about it earlier. It's a big achievement to cover 98%--

KATTY KAY:
It was a very risky strategy for him to--

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
--of the people--

David Gregory:
But let's put this in the context of the debates, Chuck. Were you surprised that Christie has decided, and do you think the campaign, the Romney campaign, is pleased with him saying, "Hey, first debate--"

(OVERTALK)

David Gregory:
"Thursday morning, things are going to be totally different."

CHUCK TODD:
Thank you, Chris Christie, though for at least actually making the, quote, whatever you want to call it, the gaffe, the honest gaffe. The fact of the matter: That has to be what happens after this first debate. The narrative has to change, the polls have to move. Romney has to clobber the president in the first debate.

RALPH REED:
If they don't move, it's over.

CHUCK TODD:
Right. So in many ways, are they happy with? I kind of think they needed the pep talk, okay? I think the base needs the pep talk. They need to think that they have confidence in their guy, that he can stand toe to toe with the president. Now, I think this idea that they're both sides playing this ridiculous expectations game-- another thing, I don't think either one of them are great one-on-one debaters, okay?

Romney hasn't proven that he's good on the second pivot, the second time you challenge, on the follow. That's where he made his mistakes during the primary debates. And Obama has a tendency to ramble, and I think that's going to be interesting to watch.

RALPH REED:
Look, I think the reality is that when the challenger gets the opportunity to stand on the same stage, feet from the president of the United States, and go toe to toe and offer, without a media filter, a devastating critique of his failed leadership over the last four years, it's going to make a difference in this race.

David Gregory:
One of the things, Ralph, if I can interrupt; this is something that Romney says he wants to do in the debates. He had a convenient with Good Morning America about that. Let me play just a portion and have you respond to it, in particular.

(Videotape/September 14, 2012)

ROMNEY: I think he's gonna say a lot of things that aren't accurate. I think the, the challenge that I'll have in the debate is that the President tends to, how shall I say it, say things that aren't true and - and in attacking his opponents

David Gregory:
Give me an example of what he would want to attack, what the president has done, and how you think Romney will handle it.

RALPH REED:
Well, I think President Obama has, and I want to be charitable here, has a casual relationship with the truth. He's very eloquent. He's extremely articulate. He's very bright. Anybody who thinks otherwise, who thinks that when you un-tether him from the teleprompter that he doesn't bring his A game, is underestimating him.

But here's the problem: His words are very eloquent, very flowery, they tickle your ears. But none of it is true. He said that unemployment would never go above 8% if we passed his stimulus plan. It's never gone below 8%. He said that he would cut the deficit in half in his first term. He has doubled it, and he's increased the national debt by 50%.

He said he would change Washington and put an end to the partisan rancor. Washington is more polarized and more paralyzed than it's been in the modern era. The Senate, which his party controls, has not passed a budget in three years. And we're 92 days from a fiscal cliff which the C.B.O. says is going to plummet us into a--

David Gregory:
Those might be broken promises.

RALPH REED:
--double-dip recession.

David Gregory:
I think people would challenge you on the idea that those things are lies, or somehow a casual relationship with-- let me great a break in here because we're going to come back, talk more about these debates, and get some of your questions, suggested questions, for the debate. We're also going to talk the foreign policy debate that's going on in this campaign. Richard Engel, our chief foreign correspondent, will join us from Afghanistan this morning. More from our roundtable as we continue, right after this.

(COMMERCIALS NOT TRANSCRIBED)

David Gregory:
We're back with more from our roundtable. Debating styles. We wanted to go back and look at some of these debates, Katty, and see what we learn. Mitt Romney in Florida on NBC, earlier this year, giving you some sense of how he'll go after the president's record. Watch.

(Videotape/January 23, 2012)

ROMNEY: Here are a lot of people in Florida that are hurting. This president has failed miserably the people of Florida. His plans for NASA, he has no plans for NASA. The space coast is -- is struggling. This president has failed the people of Florida. We have to have a president who understands how to get an economy going again. He does not. He plays 90 rounds of golf when you have 25 million people out of work.

(End videotape)

David Gregory:
Zinger. Goes after the president's record. How much does he do that versus rehabilitate his own image, and also try to be specific about what a Romney presidency would mean? It's a lot to do.

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
All of the above, yes.

KATTY KAY:
He's going to true and do all of the above. He's got to lay out, I think, why the office of the presidency and the country will be better off under him, in four years' time, than it has been. The American people know that they're hurting. They know the economy is in a bad state. What they need to know is how it's going to improve.

Now, unfortunately for Governor Romney, he goes into this debate with Republican pollsters saying that the right track/wrong track numbers have changed dramatically in some of those swing states. A majority still think the country's on the wrong track, but it's a much smaller majority.

David Gregory:
Interestingly, Governor, you've been thinking about questions, domestic policy, infrastructure, something you've worked a lot about. What would you ask?

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
Well, I'd ask how are we going to fix our infrastructure, which is literally falling apart, and invest in it, at the same time we've got to worry about the debt? And I think it's a key question. And Simpson-Bowles said it right: We've got to continue to invest in America as we're getting rid of the deficit.

David Gregory:
And yet so little appetite though to do that--

(OVERTALK)

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
But we've got to create that appetite. That has to come from leadership.

David Gregory:
Chuck, talk about the president's style. We went back and got a clip from 2008 in one of the debates with Senator McCain. And what was notable was President Obama, perhaps like he'll be this time, basically playing it safe, trying to sit on a lead. Watch this.

(Videotape/October 15, 2008)

OBAMA: We can have a debate back and forth about the merits of each other's campaigns. I suspect we won't agree here tonight. -- if we're going to focus on lifting wages that have declined over the last eight years and create jobs here in America, then Democrats, independents and Republicans, we're going to have to be able to work together. And what is important is making sure that we disagree without being disagreeable.

David Gregory:
Interesting. A lot of these undecided voters watching this want to see Washington work a little bit better. We could see more of that.

CHUCK TODD:
Oh, I think they have more of a strategy, though, of being aggressive, and that the president's going to try to get under Governor Romney's skin.

David Gregory:
Oh really?

(OVERTALK)

CHUCK TODD:
No, I think they believe that Mitt Romney is his own worst enemy. And I think that they believe, if they get him irritated, that if you look at his past, Ted Kennedy debates, he's terrible at cutaways when he's getting attacked. The $10,000 bet, "Betcha $10,000," that they believe it is easy to get under Governor Romney's skin. I expect a very aggressive President Obama, not the one you saw there.

David Gregory:
What do you see? Two men, side by side.

RALPH REED:
I think Romney's going to get a B-12 shot, you know, going into that debate--

David Gregory:
He'll be aggressive?

RALPH REED:
Oh yes. I think he'll be on his toes not on his heels. And I think Romney understands that it's no longer about him, it's about the country. And there are millions of people, David, who want to see a change, who are hurting, who are without work, who can't find work, who have lost income. And he's there on that stage Wednesday night, not on behalf of himself or on behalf of a political party, but on their behalf, to represent them and challenge this president.

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
But he's got to do more--

RALPH REED:
And I personally think that he'll do well.

GOVERNOR ED RENDELL:
--than that. He's-- he's got to lay out a plan that the American people can say, "Well, that might work."

David Gregory:
We know this first debate is about domestic policy, but foreign policy is looming large in this campaign. And I want to turn to my colleague, and our chief foreign correspondent, Richard Engel, who is live in Kabul this morning where there is news beyond the Libya crisis. Richard, I know as you've been covering the war in Afghanistan over the years, there are now 50+ attacks, insider attacks, that have killed American and other coalition forces. What's the latest you can tell us on the latest attack?

Richard EngEL:
There's been another attack. It took place yesterday, but word of the insider attack is just coming to us today. In this attack, there was an American Army checkpoint, a vehicle control point, and two Afghan soldiers came. They were speaking to the Americans at this checkpoint, and then suddenly one of these Afghan soldiers pulled out a weapon, opened fire, killed one American soldier, killed another American contractor. And then other Americans in the area opened fire, killing at least three of the Afghans.

And this is a major problem. According to statistics, at least 20% of all U.S. combat deaths this year are a result of these insider attacks. And there have been orders issued to try and separate U.S. and Afghan forces, but on the ground that's really impossible because the whole mission is for American troops to be working with Afghan troops. And so the idea of creating some sort of safe distance is impossible.

David Gregory:
And quickly, Richard, there are flashpoints across the Middle East, Libya being the most prominent at the moment, and while there's a political debate about how the administration handled that particular attack. What is the future there? What does America do at this point to work its role in the future of Libya, including tracking down the killers who were behind the attack on the embassy?

Richard EngEL:
Well, so far it appears that the attack on the consulate in Benghazi has been something of a wakeup call for the Libyan government, and to a degree, the Libyan people. The problem that Libya has always had is, after Qaddafi fell, all of these militias that have been running around the country never disarmed.

And some of these militias are affiliated with Al Qaeda, and one of these militias decided to carry out an attack against the consulate. Now there does seem to be some tentative moves by the government, and also just by the people of Benghazi, to disarm some of these militias to try and disband them. If that's successful, and Libya can finally move on from its revolutionary phase and become a normal government, then I think Libya can have a very positive future. Big country but small population, lots of oil. It has a lot of things going for it. It just needs to disarm and start behaving a little better.

David Gregory:
Richard Engel in Afghanistan for us this morning. You can watch more of Richard's reporting, along with the rest of our NBC news team reporting from the region all week long. At the Brink starting tonight on NBC Nightly News. Katty Kay, a lot of questions now in this debate, in this campaign, about this administration's handling of what is still in parts, in places, a chaotic Middle East transitioning.

KATTY KAY:
Yes, certainly. I think on the issue of Libya, actually I'm not sure that who said what when and the intelligence came out as, David Plouffe kept talking about the intelligence community and what they knew about Libya; I'm not sure that that's going to be a huge issue for voters in the course of this election.

It feels to me like, you know, a short-term issue in terms of American voters. It does mean that it's harder for the White House to keep focusing on what was a pretty disastrous response from the Romney campaign initially, to kind of draw the line under that. But in terms of American leadership more broadly in the Middle East, I mean, the situation that Richard pointed out was very clear. There's a lot of confusion and it's not easy for American leadership.

David Gregory:
Well, this debate will continue. We're simply out of time this morning. One Twitter question was very interesting, about whether Simpson-Bowles would be something that would implemented, any part of it, if Congress would go along. A lot to watch in this debate. Thanks to all of you this morning. Before we go, two programming notes. You can watch my Press Pass conversation with New York Times numbers expert Nate Silver on our blog. There's a link on our website, MeetThePressNBC.com

Also, tomorrow night, I'll be moderating a debate between the two candidates running for Senate in Massachusetts, which has become a marquis race in the election. The Democratic challenger, Elizabeth Warren, will be facing off against the incumbent Republican senator, Scott Brown. The debate, sponsored by the Boston Herald in the University of Massachusetts Lowell starts at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. If you're in the area there, you can watch it on your local NBC station. If not, you can watch is on C-SPAN or via a live stream onlin

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