"Meet the Press" moderator David Gregory sat down with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of New York, this week to discuss his thoughts on Obamacare, immigration reform and the gay marriage debate, as well as the global reaction to Pope Francis, and giving thanks during the holidays.
Below are excerpts from the interview, which will air in full on this Sunday's "Meet the Press." If used, mandatory credit: "Meet the Press" and David Gregory with airdate Sunday, December 1. For more on this Sunday's show including topics and guests, visit
MeetThePressNBC.com.
DAVID GREGORY:
What about Obamacare? You have voiced your displeasure with certain aspects of it in terms of mandates for hospitals and so forth. What about the overall goal of it? Do you think it will ultimately prevail? Would you like it? Do you think it's important for the country that universal healthcare insurance is available?
CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN:
Yup. And I'm glad you allow me to make that distinction, David. We bishops have been really kind of in a tough place because we're for universal, comprehensive, life-affirming healthcare. We, the bishops of the United States, can you believe it, in 1919 came out for more affordable, more comprehensive, more universal healthcare. That's how far back we go in this battle, okay?
So we're not Johnny-come-latelies. We've been asking for reform in healthcare for a long time. So we were kind of an early supporter in this. Where we started bristling and saying, "Uh-oh, first of all this isn't comprehensive, because it's excluding the undocumented immigrant and it's excluding the unborn baby," so we began to bristle at that.
And then secondly we said, "And wait a minute, we Catholics who are kind of among the pros when it comes to providing healthcare, do it because of our religious conviction, and because of the dictates of our conscience. And now we're being asked to violate some of those."
So that's when we began to worry and draw back and say, "Mr. President, please, you're really kind of pushing aside some of your greatest supporters here. We want to be with you, we want to be strong. And if you keep doing this, we're not going to be able to be one of your cheerleaders." And that sadly is what happened.
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DAVID GREGORY:
Let me touch on gay marriage. Here this week you had Illinois becoming the 16th state, including D.C., to legalize same-sex marriage. Regardless of the church teachings, do you think this is evolving in such a way that it's ultimately going to be legal everywhere? Or do you believe the opposite, that there will be a backlash and that it, well, the status quo will be maintained?
CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN:
I think I'd be a Pollyanna to say that there doesn't seem to be kind of a stampede to do this. I regret that. I wish that were not the case for the states to be--
DAVID GREGORY:
But why do you think the church is losing the argument on it, in effect?
CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN:
Well, I think maybe we've been out-marketed, sometimes. We've been caricatured as being anti-gay. And as much as we'd say, "Wait a minute, we're pro marriage, we're pro traditional marriage, we're not anti anybody," I don't know. When you have forces like Hollywood, when you have forces like politicians, when you have forces like some opinion-molders that are behind it, it's a tough battle.
I do think to get back to your question though, David, you know, back in 1973 with Roe v. Wade, everybody said, "This is a foregone conclusion. In a couple years, this issue is going to go away. It's going to be back-burnered." To this day, it remains probably the most divisive issue in American politics. And as you look at some of the changing attitudes, you say, "Wow, we're beginning to affect the young with the pro-life message. So we're not going to give up on it.
DAVID GREGORY:
So you don't think the gay marriage debate is over, a settled question?
CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN:
I don't think it's over. No. I don't think it is. Uh-uh.
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