SPOTLIGHT ON FOLLIES 2011: Ron Raines

Today we are kicking off Broadway World's multi-part series of interviews with the stars of the 2011 Kennedy Center produced and Eric Schaeffer directed production of Stephen Sondheim & James Goldman's seminal showbiz musical, FOLLIES, currently in previews on Broadway at the Marquis Theater. Suave leading man Ron Raines sheds light on the central, pivotal role of Benjamin Stone and how he sees the character - in his youth, in his marriage, in the present and, also, in the future, post-Loveland and, even post-FOLLIES - as well as illuminates his interactions with the colorful array of stars he shares the stage with eight nights a week - chief among them: Bernadette Peters, Elaine Paige and Jan Maxwell! Additionally, we discuss what has changed in the transfer from Washington, D.C. to NYC, as well as examine the underlying message and story told in Ben's stunning musical triptych of "The Road You Didn't Take", "Too Many Mornings" and "Live, Laugh, Love". As if all that were not enough, Raines and I cast a glance back at his previous stage and screen work and discuss his solo albums, upcoming concert appearances and much, much more! Plus, first news of his essaying of the title role in SWEENEY TODD with Karen Ziemba in St. Louis next summer, directed by the helmer of the original Christopher Bond play that inspired Sondheim to compose the musical adaptation in the first place back in 1969.

The Ben I'll Be

PC: So, has anything changed significantly in the production from DC to NYC - besides Bernadette's new pink dress?

RR: Well, we really got to a good place in D.C. and then we went back into rehearsal and tweaked, tweaked, tweaked and then we picked right up where we left off - and, the audiences in New York have just been terrific.

PC: This is far from your first Sondheim show - you've done A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC a number of times, as well as FOLLIES.

RR: Yes, I've done A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC many, many times. (Pause.) God, I've done that one for  quite a while, too - I've lived with that one through the years and kind of grew up in Frederick's skin. I started with Frederick - like I did with Ben - really being too young for the role to understand the man.

PC: Tell me how your perception has changed.

RR: Well, because there were more productions of NIGHT MUSIC, I was allowed to grow and evolve with the role, if you will.

PC: Of course.

RR: When I did Ben Stone originally - my first time - it was in 1988 when I did it with the Michigan Opera Theater in Detroit, with Juliet Prowse, Nancy Dussault - and Carlotta was Edie Adams!

PC: Oh, wow! What a cast!

RR: I was too young, but the role - as I'm sure you can imagine - and the show; it just stays with you forever.

PC: Indeed.

RR: Of course, if you love Mr. Sondheim and his shows, you can't escape the haunting experience of playing a Ben Stone. It just stays with you.

PC: Tell me about that twenty-year journey.

RR: I realize I did not know all the aspects of the man, but as I matured as a man in my own life, I did observe situations and did go through situations in my own life that related to Ben and made me understand more this type of man - whether by observing others who were more Ben Stone types, or just through life experiences. And, of course, you do reach a certain age and you do start reflecting back.

PC: "Never look back"!

RR: Right! Right. I have just been so happy to be a part of this FOLLIES. Especially this FOLLIES. I, basically, auditioned for it last October. I think that I was a replacement - I think they lost someone and I was a replacement.

PC: Oh, really?

RR: Yes, but they had auditions and I went in. Eric had known my work, but not to a really great extent, so they wanted to see me read and hear me sing the songs - I mean, that really tells you only a little bit. It's about a lot of other things other than just singing and saying words.

PC: What did you sing at your audition?

RR: "The Road You Didn't Take".

PC: That's the most important thematic song in the show - the central theme.

RR: Absolutely! (Laughs.) That's what the whole show is about!

PC: In the 1987 London production they cut that song, you know.

RR: How did you do that? How do you do the show without that song?! (Laughs.)

PC: We'll have to ask Mr. Sondheim, I suppose. Are you familiar with the London production at all? Did the production you did in 1988 acknowledge the rewrite in any way?

RR: Oh, I don't think so - that was a production that had a life with Theater Under The Stars in Houston and L.A. Light Opera - it had a life of about four or five or six cities. John Cullum played Ben at one point.

PC: Who else was in it?

RR: Well, Juliet played it three or four times, I think.

PC: As Phyllis.

RR: Yes. They had different casts over the course of, about, three years. So, I did it at this one place.

PC: And you were in your thirties.

RR: I was in my late thirties! You just don't know who Ben Stone is when you are in your thirties.

PC: Did you find the music tough to tackle, then or now?

RR: The music... you know... (Pause.) Yeah. I mean, the lyric hits you different at different times in your life. The great thing about this work is that it hits you no matter what - no matter what stage of life you are in.

PC: Timeless.

RR: If you are in your twenties, you say, "Oh, wow! These people really make some weird choices." So, in your thirties, you're kind of thinking a little bit more about, you know, "Oh, I guess I can see what can happen if you are not true to yourself, so to speak." Then, of course, in your forties and fifties it hits you differently - the marriage thing; the dysfunctional things; the relationships; the career-oriented guy who made all the money but had no joy and no life and sold out totally in other areas of his life. Then, there is this Sally who is holding onto this fantasy that was never, ever a reality. I mean, these people really exist - this isn't much of stretch!

PC: You can say that again.

RR: I think it was hard, maybe, for people to grasp it in 1971, but now there are these talk shows and shrink shows and...

PC: Look at reality TV.

RR: Oh, yeah! All this information highway we have available to us allows to see these people and say, "Oh, yeah! I know these people!" Or, "Oh, yeah! I was married to that guy!"

PC: Totally relatable.

RR: I'm sure people did that back then, too, but, you have to remember that we were moving much slower back then. I think this piece is extremely dark for that period of time. It was a dark time, anyway, but we were more isolated from each other in some ways. There were only three networks. There were rotary phones - only.

PC: How things have changed in forty years.

RR: Yeah, the self-help stuff was just kind of starting. Now, I think, the general audience has finally caught up with the genius of FOLLIES.

PC: It is instructive to note that in many ways it appears that A CHORUS LINE was original choreographer/co-director Michael Bennett's natural extension of some of the themes of FOLLIES - specifically, showbiz people and how they deal with life when they cannot perform anymore. There are many parallels.

RR: My God - yes. You are absolutely right.

PC: Is this the first time you have worked with Bernadette Peters?

RR: Yes, this is my very first time. I am very, very happy to be working with her. She is my generation's Broadway star - I am just thrilled to be her leading man.

PC: We just spoke about "The Road You Didn't Take" and, of course, the opening underscore for that is first heard in your first duet with Sally, "Don't Look At Me". Those songs are intimately aligned.

RR: Oh, yes. Definitely.

PC: Did you enjoy taking on a spoke-sung type lyric such as in "Don't Look At Me" - especially since your other duet, "Too Many Mornings", is near-operatic in comparison?

RR: Oh, yes. "Don't Look At Me" is dialogue - it's, basically, dialogue. It's that brilliant kind of recitative dialogue. It's Stephen Sondheim's genius - it's like: you go into song and it's natural and you're just talking, but it's on notes! (Pause.) I love it. I really love "The Road You Didn't Take" so much, though.

PC: "Live, Laugh, Love" has so much going on in it - is it difficult to memorize the written-in mistakes and hiccups?

RR: Well, you know, Mr. Sondheim is a lyricist that you have to show up for - you can't phone it in. That's the challenge. Every word is for a reason and is thought out greatly by him. So, when you are doing a patter song - you don't have time to phone it in! (Laughs.)

PC: You can say that again!

RR: You've gotta be sharp! You've gotta be on your best game. There have been times when things have come out of my mouth that have been interesting, but I was already onto the next word.

PC: Barely room for a breath.

RR: You know, it's "Live, laugh, love," and, then, "Love, laugh, live" and then... (Laughs.) I had a little trouble with those sometimes.

PC: And the way the "Me" creeps in and the "I don't love me" trick.

RR: Yeah. Uh huh. It's a "Wow!"

PC: What a moment.

RR: It's Ben in control, Ben in control, and, then, Ben losing control - the surprise is just wonderful. The people in the audience who don't know about it coming go, "Oh, my God!"

PC: Do you enjoy acting with the conductor every night in that song?

RR: (Laughs.) Oh, yeah! Yeah! James Moore is the fabulous conductor, by the way.

PC: And, then, there is the great love song of the show, "Too Many Mornings".

RR: A great melody. A great, romantic love duet. Sondheim can write really beautiful melodies. Oh, I just love that song. It's so beautiful.

PC: Attention to all the GENERAL HOSPITAL fans out there: there is a song and a moment in FOLLIES just for you!

RR: I think so! I think so. (Laughs.)

PC: Speaking of which, what do you think of the current state of soaps? Susan Lucci just did this column recently and she will be doing the online version of ALL MY CHILDREN.

RR: (Sighs.) Well, I think their day has come and gone. I think the end is right around the corner and it has to do with economics. It really supported prime-time at one time. But, just the economics and the number of channels and the advertising dollars and the volume of the medium itself - when you have 28 contract actors and 40 sets and 15 writers, you can support that when you only have 3 networks with the advertising dollars, maybe; but with 200 networks? You are competing with a guy sitting in a chair talking to somebody or a judge dealing with the public - non-actors - and the talk shows and doctor shows; you just cannot compete with that.

PC: An over-saturated market.

RR: You know, I think they tried to make it work and they cut, cut, cut - but, it's too much. It's too much.

PC: The networks are having problems keeping up quality - THE WALKING DEAD show runner just quit because AMC slashed the budget so much, even though it is their most-viewed show.

RR: It's like the wild west, in a way.

PC: Totally.

RR: You know, we're moving so quickly with the technology that we are reinventing every day we get to the office. The system is not defined - and I don't think it will ever be defined. The settling of any kind of system now? I don't see it happening. Things are changing too fast. There is just so much out there now and technology is just advancing so fast. Every morning you wake up and... I can't even comprehend it! (Laughs.)

PC: Don't worry: if you're talking to Broadway World, you are cutting edge.

RR: (Laughs.) It's a new world!

PC: What do you do on your nights off if you get one?

RR: I am a big supporter of the arts - I love the symphony and opera.

PC: And you've done operetta earlier in your career.

RR: Yes, I did. Many, many years ago. (Laughs.)

PC: And Ben is ideally cast with a more operatic voice - even if you aren't Young Heidi with the trills and such.

RR: I like to think that it is a really good blend of what I have to offer - my acting chops and my serious singing chops. I have worked very hard to make my voice legit and, yet, absolutely true to giving everything to every lyric of Mr. Sondheim's.

PC: That comes through in your performance, as well.

RR: Thank you. It's not about becoming more vocal, but more lyric-driven. The lyrics are the most important thing to me in the song. The music is important, too, and I'd like to think I bring both of them.

PC: You do. What did you think of Sondheim's FOLLIES thoughts in his book, FINISHING THE HAT? It's a riveting read.

RR: Oh, I have read it many times! I love it. What a great book!

PC: And he cites, "The Ben I'll never be / Who remembers him?" as an all-time favorite line of his from his own canon.

RR: Yes. Yes.

PC: If not that moment, what is your personal favorite Ben Stone moment in this production? Yours is a very sensitive portrayal.

RR: Oh, there are so many... I just love this production.

PC: Your moment with Elaine is quite enjoyable, in particular, I thought. Do you enjoy working with her?

RR: Oh, yeah! God, I love her, too. She just cracks me up so much. She's a great colleague.

PC: She is so funny and sharp. Tell me about working with this company in general.

RR: First of all, the colleagues in this company - they put 41 actors onstage.

PC: Wow! Almost unheard of, these days.

RR: It is such a supportive camaraderie, collegial group of people that are so supportive of each other and pulling for each other and rooting for the show and just thrilled to be a part of the event and a part of this great work. It's just a pleasure to go to work. There is no tension. It's funny, because with a show with so little joy onstage... (Laughs.)

PC: It's definitely dark!

RR: ...there really is so much joy offstage. Just to work with that cast - I mean, look at the theatre history up there!

PC: I interviewed Hal Prince for this column and he spoke of the economics of the original FOLLIES being completely prohibitive were one to attempt to produce it today. This production is the exception to many rules, it seems.

RR: That's what I respect about Michael Kaiser and the Kennedy Center. You know, Michael Kaiser is an incredible man and an incredible visionary - he is a major Sondheim believer and a man that wants to do things right, no matter what. To think that he has produced this show with 41 people onstage, big sets, 28 pieces in the orchestra!

PC: Jonathan Tunick's original masterful orchestrations.

RR: Jonathan Tunick's original! Not a band of some synthesizers and some strings.

PC: The 2001 revival had a teeny tiny band, you know. A quarter what this production has, pretty much.

RR: So did [the recent] NIGHT MUSIC, I think.

PC: It's sickening.

RR: That takes incredible courage and belief from Michael Kaiser and the Kennedy Center to do it big like this. My hat is off to him and to the Kennedy Center for doing this. To bring New York and a whole new generation this show?

PC: Priceless.

RR: I'll tell you, also, there was - after the Sunday matinee - like, four hundred people at the stage door. There were so many young kids - 25, 26; theater majors, college kids.

PC: I'm 27. FOLLIES has a lot to say to our generation, too. Especially now.

RR: It is so great to see these kids! I said, "Where are you coming from? It's so great!" To have these kids seeing this and having it hit them at this stage and stay with them forever. This can be like their original FOLLIES, if you will.

PC: It is. The 2001 revival certainly was not.

RR: Jonathan Tunick said the other day that this is the closest production he has seen to the original.

PC: What high praise. He was there?

RR: Yes, he was at the orchestra read through and the company was over the moon. He was giving notes, too. He's such a genius.

PC: The work he has done in his career alone is astounding. And, an EGOT recipient, to boot.

RR: I know! My god! And, he's such an incredible guy!

PC: Have you gotten to work with Sondheim yet?

RR: He is talking about coming in to work with us all together, but I had a conversation with him on the phone. He's much better on the phone, he says, because in person he is much shier.

PC: This is true.

RR: We talked about "The Road You Didn't Take" because I had some questions. It was really amazing. He's a marvelous teacher, you know.

PC: Indeed.

RR: He has a very wonderful nurturing instinct when talking about his songs.

PC: That's why he has taken the new PORGY & BESS to task - it is clear that he believes in the art-form and maintaining standards set out by the original authors no matter what.

RR: Respecting the creators more than the re-creators. (Laughs.)

PC: Totally. He seems to want people to treat his work with respect fifty or a hundred years from now when he isn't here to make sure of it himself.

RR: Absolutely. It's an "I hope somebody does this for me someday, if need be."

PC: Without a doubt. So, there have been little tweaks to the production since the Kennedy Center? Some new lines, as well?

RR: You FOLLIES fans know the show better than I do! (Laughs.)

PC: The message boards are going nuts! Especially at Broadway World.

RR: Yeah, there is a new line they gave Ben where he is talking to Carlotta.

PC: Oh, we were just talking about that exchange. What changed?

RR: She says, "Well, I haven't seen your picture in the paper lately, Ben," and he says, "Well, thanks - the same to you!" And, she says, "You should watch more television - I have my own series!" That was a new line for DC. But, my new line - or, should I say: word - to her in response is, "Master-class Theatre?" And she says, "No! You always liked to get the last line, didn't you?" And, then, her twenty-six-year-old boyfriend comes out onstage to get her. (Laughs.)

PC: Have any of the lines referencing Sally's suicide attempt resurfaced in rehearsals in NYC?

RR: No. I don't remember any of that at all.

PC: Interesting. Do you think Ben is at the nervous breakdown point in his relationship with Phyllis like Sally is with Buddy?

RR: Well, the journey that I am going on is that he starts in one place and then little cracks start to happen, unbeknownst to him, and it has a domino effect. He doesn't come in ready crack. He is wound up tight and miserable. But, the cracks start to happen because of his inside being stirred-up - which has not even been touched in years - and this thirty year reunion has awakened that within him.

PC: Like an egg boiling from the inside out.

RR: Absolutely.

PC: Interesting. At what point does it start?

RR: Well, my first crack, I think, is in "The Road You Didn't Take". Even the song itself - you know: you're talking, you're talking, you're thinking, then, you are justifying and, then, wow, it is over. So, by the end of that song you are in another place.

PC: The orchestration of that song is so elemental to its success. Is it a celestia in the beginning?

RR: Oh, it's superb - whatever the instrument is. It's not an obvious song, though. You know, Ben's songs all always follow these huge showstoppers - "Broadway Baby" leads into "The Road You Didn't Take", which just ends and kind of leaves you. It's a plot song, whereas those are three novelty numbers that it comes after. Then, "Too Many Mornings" comes after "I'm Still Here"! (Laughs.)

PC: Right? Impossible to top that.

RR: And Ben's breakdown comes after "Lucy & Jessie"! (Laughs.)

PC: I never noticed that before. A great insight into the structure and song order and how it pertains to the characters.

RR: It's OK, though - I am having a romance getting into his skin and getting into his suit. I love the character. (Pause.) I love the show very much.

PC: Beautiful suits - even for a former soap actor!

RR: Oh, Greg Barnes? Good God!

PC: Perfect.

RR: Bernadette's new dress is terrific, too! It fits her so well and it's just... right! (Laughs.)

PC: Va va voom.

RR: It's so right. It's perfect.

PC: From Bernadette to Jan Maxwell: what is it like working with her? She has a whole new routine for "Lucy & Jessie", correct?

RR: Yeah, she has a whole new "Lucy/Jessie".

PC: And, of course, she is your Phyllis.

RR: What's really funny is that we come onstage as man and wife, but she starts having all the scenes with Buddy and I start having all the scenes with Sally, so we really don't have any scenes together until she sings the great "Could I Leave You?"

PC: And that's a solo.

RR: It's every female's desire to scream at this jerk! (Laughs.)

PC: Do you enjoy playing that song with her in just reactions?

RR: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's a tough moment and I've had to really work at it and find layers. You know, "What do you do?" He has to go somewhere, too, even though he's listening.

PC: Plus, reaction acting can turn to ham so quickly.

RR: Yeah, yeah. It's an incredible song to play off of. One of the many incredible songs in the show.

PC: It seems to relate a bit to "You Must Meet My Wife" from A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC in its tonal snide bitchiness, to me.

RR: Oh, yeah! Yeah, Yeah. That's a fabulous song. As a side thing, I've gotten to do that song with so many fabulous divas: Cleo Laine, Leslie Uggams, Amy Irving, Christine Ebersole and, of course, Mary Beth Peil!

PC: Mary Beth Peil - your Solange!

RR: Yes! I've done that show a lot and it is so great to do this show with Mary Beth Peil and have her be a part of our company. I really adore her talent and admire what a survivor she is.

PC: DAWSON'S CREEK to NINE and everything that came before.

RR: You know, she started out in opera - she was in CARMEN with Rosalind Elias!

PC: She can do it all - she was fantastic in the Kennedy Center SWEENEY TODD.

RR: She said that she made her switch in 1982 when she did KISS ME, KATE. She said that kicked her on the other side of the fence. Then, she did TV and, now, she's back to Broadway! She's a survivor - she's still here.

PC: Is that the message of FOLLIES - we can all survive if we really stick with it and stay true to ourselves?

RR: Mmmhmm.

PC: Is it also about we don't get what we want, ultimately?

RR: Well, we don't get what we think we wanted - I mean, Ben got what he wanted, but it really wasn't what was honest. It was an ambitious, driven thing. It wasn't emotional. It was a focused determination for one thing - you take one road, you take one door. "I am gonna walk into Tiffany's and buy you the biggest diamond; I am gonna have a big car; I am gonna be very successful. I am 24 and I know what I want and I've gone to law school, so get out of my way! You're gonna look great beside me and this is how we're gonna do it." And, he got what he wanted - but it was empty and it was joyless.

PC: How illustrative of Ben and Phyllis's relationship over the years. Fills in so many gaps.

RR: We are victims of our choices and this show is about choices that we've made and didn't make. That's life. You know, we all make bad choices on occasion, but we hope that it is not such a bad choIce That it throws our lives on a track that is totally away from who we are as humans.

PC: What did Ben lose to win?

RR: I think Ben lost his humanity - because of his ambitious drive for money and success.

PC: I completely agree.

RR: Sally says, "Your trouble is you don't feel!" And, Phyllis says, "You wouldn't know love if it hit you in the face! You don't know what it is!" And, he doesn't - yet, at this point in his life, he wants to know. But, guess what? You didn't choose that path at all and now you are about to melt down. And, look at Sally - holding onto the past. And, look at Phyllis!

PC: How do you see Phyllis, as Ben?

RR: I mean, she bought into Ben's dream, too - you know: "I'll learn. I'll go to the Metropolitan Museum. And, I'll read. I'll be a hostess. I'll do this and this to seek your approval." How many relationships do you know about that?

PC: Too many.

RR: And, then, Buddy is trying to get Sally to love him. You know, "My problem is that I love you, damn it! You don't even know about me." It's just so real. (Pause.) These stories are not so foreign.

PC: It's so incredibly rich.

RR: Oh, so rich.

PC: So, you've done this for three months now...

RR: And I'm hoping to get at least another three or four months to do it!

PC: Damn right! I hope the show is selling well.

RR: It is. I hear it really is.

PC: What a wonderful production to have back on Broadway.

RR: I feel so lucky to be a part of it.

PC: Before you go, I wanted to touch on how much I enjoyed your "Gigi" on the MY FAVORITE BROADWAY DVD. What a great concert.

RR: Thank you so much for that, Pat. I actually replaced John Cullum in that. I am always the replacement! (Laughs.)

PC: And sometimes John Cullum replaces you - like in FOLLIES ‘88!

RR: (Laughs.) I did a Gershwin thing for PBS, too, and I came out and sang two things for that replacing Chita [Rivera].

PC: She has done this column, as well. She is such a legend. A class act.

RR: Oh, Chita? Now, there's an icon! I've always admired and respected her. We actually did CAN-CAN together once, years ago.

PC: And from Chita to CHICAGO: did you enjoy your stint?

RR: Oh, yeah. I did that way back in ‘02, but I did the 10th anniversary performance, too. It's such a machine down there, I don't even know how many different actresses I worked with! (Laughs.)

PC: I'm so glad you included "Anthem" on your solo album, as well. CHESS is really Sir Tim Rice's masterpiece.

RR: Oh, that's so nice of you. I'm so glad you enjoyed it! That's a really great song. Didn't Ms. Paige originally record that song?

PC: Yes, of course. She sang a reprise of it in the original. CHESS was written expressly for her, of course.

RR: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

PC: What's next?

RR: I am going to be doing SWEENEY TODD in Spring/Summer 2012 in St. Louis with Karen Ziemba as Mrs. Lovett.

PC: How fantastic!

RR: It will be at the Opera Theater St. Louis with a full symphony orchestra in the pit playing Mr. Tunick's orchestrations of Mr. Sondheim's music. The director is a man named Ron Daniels, who directed the play that Mr. Sondheim saw in 1969 that started the wheels turning for him to write his SWEENEY TODD.

PC: What great news and what a cool connection! Full circle!

RR: Ron came to see the show last week, actually.

PC: Define collaboration in terms of your experiences working on this production of FOLLIES.

RR: I think that that's just part of my DNA. It's natural. It's an amazing thing when it really happens, but it looks like it's gonna happen a lot more than it does on paper. We all are trying to solve the problems that we are given. Hopefully, we get closer and closer to solving the problem together. I think the more that you live in this man's suits and skin, the clearer he becomes for you. It's taken me awhile because these characters are really sketches - essences, really. They are stripped down to their bare bones and they are very bloodless, unhappy people. It is really a challenge to find out who they are. Ben is a challenge - but, a wonderful challenge! I am really feeling more and more comfortable with him now and really enjoying playing him every night - it took me awhile though!

PC: Some problems take forty years to solve.

RR: You know, sometimes you're three months down the road and you think, "Oh! That was what that was about! I get it now!"

PC: Three months too late. Delayed comprehension.

RR: I can't tell you how many times that has happened - but, that is the journey from playing Ben in ‘88 ‘til now. I thought then, "Sheesh, I don't know how to play Ben now." But, along the way, I would think, "That's Ben Stone; that's something." And, you store it away - never thinking you are going to do the role again, but hoping to someday. (Pause.) So, that's just part of, I guess, being curious and going through life as an actor and an artist - we are always observing the human condition.

PC: What's the next line in the show after the last one - "Hi. Girls. Ben. Sally?"

RR: Yeah, yeah, right? (Laughs.)

PC: It has one of those illusory endings - seriously: what happens next?

RR: Well, there's gonna be a lot of marriage counseling! (Laughs.)

PC: For sure!

RR: It might not work out, but we really don't know - there's that teeny weenie glimmer. I like to think that we leave the audience with lots to discuss. I know every time my friends have come to see it it has sparked a heated discussion! I like to think that there is a glimmer of hope in Phyllis and Ben's life - I mean, he has nowhere to go but up and he gets it now, but whether he will have the same strength or the determination that he had to be successful in business to make his relationship with Phyllis work, then it might work.

PC: Do you think Sally and Ben consummate their relationship anew at the party after "Too Many Mornings"? Staging varies and this production uses the intermission after that song.

RR: Well, I think he just became mesmerized in the moment. He says, "Sally, I want you this minute." This minute - two words - say a lot about his character, whittled down to a bare two words. "I don't want you forever and I never did." He wants to have her this minute. "I don't want to hurt you, but I just want to take you out there - like I did with that girl this afternoon...." It's that self-hate. "I want you this minute and that's all." And, Sally's like, "This means you wanna marry me, right?" And Ben's like, "Whoa!" And, suddenly, he sees this fantasy; this delusion. Then, of course, I think they both move on from that.

PC: Separately. It was quite explicit in Papermill. What do you think of the intermission issue in general - should it be a one-act like the original?

RR: Well, to not have an intermission? That is too much of a long sit, I think! People's poor bladders! (Laughs.)

PC: And, they can't sell concessions if they take it out.

RR: Right! No booze money! (Laughs.)

PC: Thank you so much, Ron. This was fascinating and delightful.

RR: Thank you so much and you are very welcome, Pat! It was thoroughly enjoyable talking to you. Bye bye.