Interview: Robert Townsend of LIVING THE SHUFFLE at The Marsh Berkeley

I don’t know that I’ve ever spoken with anyone who seemed to enjoy their job more than Robert Townsend. The guy just exudes joy and positivity, even though his films and TV shows often deal with the effects of racism - from his seminal 1987 satire about the tribulations of Black actors trying to make a career in show business, Hollywood Shuffle, up to more recent projects like 10,000 Black Men Named George and Making The Five Heartbeats. Maybe he’s so constantly joyous because he’s someone who has been able to “do it all,” as an actor-director-writer-producer-comedian whose work has touched pretty much every genre you can think of.

Townsend is about to return to The Marsh Berkeley with a newly updated version of his one-man show Living the Shuffle, a roller coaster ride through the highs and lows of his multi-faceted career. The piece had a very-well received run at The Marsh five years ago before the pandemic and competing commitments forced him to put it on the back burner for a while. For example, you may have seen him playing Ayo Edebiri’s father on The Bear or opposite Billy Crystal on Before.

I chatted with Townsend on Martin Luther King Day from his home base in Southern California where he was putting finishing touches on his show before heading up to the Bay Area to start the run. We talked about why it had taken him so long to bring the show back and why he’s so excited to do live theater again, how he got the role on The Bear, and how his trailblazing work is being rediscovered by new generations. The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

When we scheduled this interview, I knew it was going to be Martin Luther King Day, but I didn’t realize it would also be inauguration day, so thanks for giving me something else to focus on today!

It’s a lot goin’ on, my brother, it’s a lot goin’ on! [laughs]

I saw the first run of Living the Shuffle at The Marsh five years ago and thought it was already in such great shape you might take it straight to New York and elsewhere, but that didn’t really happen. Why not?

I was off directing/pitching/writing, and as an artist because I wear so many hats I’m always going from this to that to this to that. So I did it in New York for a little bit and wanted to move it around, but then I got busy working on my other stuff. And I’ve had like a crazy great year. I’m currently recurring on The Bear, I did a limited series with Billy Crystal called Before, I directed the season finale for a show called Force, and now I’m working with Damon [Wayans], so you know it gets away from you. But I love performing, so then I was like “I wanna get back to my show. I want to play again.”

So much has happened in the five years since you last did the show that some of the original material might hit audiences a bit differently now. Have you made many changes?

I would say a lot is the same because it’s really about my journey as an artist, it’s not so much “Well, I want to dabble into where we are in the world of politics.” But there’s new chunks that I dive into, like the images of people of color, because I didn’t really go into that world specifically. I really thought about all those images, from Louis Armstrong to the early Bill Cosby to Mantan Moreland to Stepin Fetchit. I wrote an additional chunk about Nat King Cole and all these different people. So I delve a little bit more into that and more into my days in New York. I’ve reworked and polished different things, but it’s still the same show. I just want to dive in deeper.

Recently, we’re seeing more Black people get opportunities in more visible roles in the entertainment industry, which is great, but at the same time I find it a little frustrating when each one is touted as the “first” this or the “first” that, when that isn’t always the case. I sometimes fear there’s a whole generation of Black trailblazers whose earlier contributions are getting overlooked. Do you ever feel like some of your seminal work is being forgotten?

No. What’s interesting is that now there’s a whole new generation of actors and actresses that come up to me or reach out on social media to say, “I got into the business because of you.” Or like Hollywood Shuffle is now on the Criterion Collection. It just came out and I did a whole thing about that. The beautiful thing is that any time new movies are done, people will say like, “Black Panther? No, no, no Robert Townsend’s Meteor Man was the first [Black superhero film].” Or there’s a comedy with Keke Palmer and the singer SZA that just was released this week, and the filmmakers referred to the film that I did with Halle Berry – B*A*P*S. They go, “Oh, no that’s the first comedy duo of two Black women.”

There is a part of you that goes like “Will people know where it started, or who did it?” And I just think that when you do quality work there is a place for it in history. People are still watching my stuff, that’s the beautiful thing. They go “Oh, I want to turn my kids on to this.” Or “You never saw that?” You know, on social media there’s a thing where if you haven’t seen a certain one of my films or TV shows, they go “You’re gonna get your Black card taken away from you!” So it’s a compliment.

People who are only familiar with your work from movies and TV might be surprised by what a terrific stage actor you are. What kind of training did you have?

I started out in the theater in Chicago and New York, so I’ve done plays, but I’m just a natural performer. I talk about it in the show, studying with Stella Adler, studying at the Negro Ensemble Company. Somebody once said to me, “Robert, you’re a writer, you’re a director, you’re a producer, but one of your true gifts is performing.” It’s just the way I’m wired. I can do something really dramatic and gangster, I can do superhero, I can do a sitcom, so I can touch all kind of genres.

You’re one of those performers who seem to have a sixth sense about how to read the room. You know how to make the big moments as big as they need to be, but you also know how to make the quieter moments as intimate as they need to be. Is that something you consciously strive to do?

Not really. I started as a standup comedian, and when you do standup you have to know where the jokes are. And also because I’m a storyteller, you gotta know where the drama is. When people ask, “What’s your process?” that’s a tricky one because I really do have a unique body of work. I can go from 10,000 Black Men Named George, about the pullman porter strike, that they’re gonna have screenings of for Black History Month, and then it’s like Super Hero! Variety Show! As a performer, there is something that you have where you know how to truly entertain a room. It’s just in me.

I also think you’re brilliant at knowing when to pull back, when not to push too hard.

Well, thank you. Let me say this - it is a dance. Artists that I admire and respect know how to do that beautiful dance. I call it being a modern-day vaudevillian, because I’m singing, I’m dancing, I’m doing impersonations, I’m creating characters - and then I can make you laugh or I can make you cry

What do you personally want out of this run at The Marsh?

Well, there’s two things. One, I have these muscles [I want to use] and two, I love playing. And I love challenging myself so I want to take the show to the next level in this run. I want to see was there more meat on the bone in that chunk? Should I try this next time? So I’m just looking at challenging myself even more, pushing myself even harder. I love being an artist!

Do you have any plans for the show after this run?

[pregnant pause followed by laughter] There are plans, but … I can’t say.

The Bear is one of my favorite TV shows.

Thank you!

I was already a fan of the show in season 1, so when I saw that you were joining the cast in season 2, I was like “Hmm, I wonder who Robert Townsend’s going to play?” Then it occurred to me “Duh! He’s going to be Sydney’s dad.” It just made so much sense. Was that role written specifically for you?

I don’t want to say it was written for me, but Chris Storer, who is the showrunner and Ayo, who plays Sydney, they were like “The only person that could play my dad is Robert Townsend.” As they were coming up with the character, they were like “Will he do it?” I had been watching The Bear and loving it, and I was like “This is a really great show! I can’t wait to see what happens next!” And then they called and said, “Hey, do you want to be a part of the show for season 2?” And I was like “Oh, my God, yes!”

So they didn’t write it for me, but Ayo and I just have a beautiful connection. She is so amazing, she’s a little baby genius. I call Chris the young Orson Welles. He’s the smartest cat, just a beautiful dude. He comes prepared, and I love that. I mean, he comes to set dressed in a suit or a sweater with a tie, he has a certain elegant style to him that I love. I’ve been having the best time on the show.  

I just received a tribute from the DGA [Directors Guild of America], kind of a lifetime achievement. Chris doesn’t come out of his house much cause he’s always working, but he came and spoke and said some really kind words. I was just blown away because he’s the young Orson Welles.

I saw just the other day that Ayo Edebiri was nominated for a Director’s Guild Award for The Bear. Did you happen to give her any directing tips while you were hanging out on set with her?

Yes, I put her through the paces! [laughs] It was so funny because she told me she was directing when we were shooting and I said, “Are you ready?” She says, “Yeah, yeah, I’ve been going through my stuff.” So then I say, “Let’s go have lunch.” We had lunch and I was double-checking and going like “You got your shot list? You thought through the movement patterns? You thought through your blocking?” And I could see her eyes go like “Oh, yeah. I didn’t think about that!” So we had a whole little dance. I’m so happy for her, I’m like her Dad for real. I love her!

Since this is Martin Luther King Day, I wanted to ask how you think his legacy may have specifically informed your work.

Well… I’ll say it like this: I have always tried to raise the bar. You know, as I was working on the show today, I was doing the chunk in France, after I do Hollywood Shuffle and I go to France. A journalist there says to me, “Mr. Townsend I’m so confused because all the Black actors in the movies we see over here play the pimps, the hustlers and the jive-asses, and they seem to enjoy it.” And in that moment my mission was cemented to create positive images of people of color, because images travel.

So when I think about Martin Luther King, he’s an example of raising the bar, and the possibilities of what people of color can be, and will be. We’ve lost some ground, but I think when you talk about Living the Shuffle, it’s an example for other artists to say “Here’s what to look out for and here’s how you can manage and navigate a career and do positive things.”

So that’s the thing that I think connects the two of us. You know there are certain films that will always stay in the ether, and my films and TV shows are always in heavy rotation so I feel really blessed. Martin Luther King was about elevating people of color, and I think that’s what I’ve always tried to do.

(all photos by Daniel Baumer)

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