Re: 'Rose's Turn' lyric change for Angela

[Owen22]

I'm sure this MUST have come up before, so I'm sorry, but I heard Angela Lansbury's "Rose's Turn" today on Sirius. I must have heard it before but never noticed this lyric change. Instead of the line "Mama's talkin' loud", a reference to a song no longer in the score, she sang "Mama's singin' out." to obviously connect with her classic line to Louise. Besides never noticing this before, I'm surprise it didn't become canon to the show. I don't remember this change in any of the subsequent B'way revivals, two of which Laurents directed as well.

[CATSNYrevival]

I honestly never noticed that before. Wow.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

It might have just a flub that was left in.

[Owen22]

Phyllis, I'm sure it wasn't a flub, it was a deliberate lyric change, not arbitrary as we can easily trace back why, in the first major revival of the show, it would be considered a good change.

[sondheimboy2]

I can't say that I've noticed it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had been changed. I remember reading somewhere that a bit of the melody of "Mama's Talkin' Soft" that was in "Rose's Turn" was excised for the Angela revival.

[sassylash3s]

I believe I saw a video of Patti at Encores that also used this lyric, but it was changed back to the original for the Broadway production.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

^ Definitely worth noting that the Arthur Laurents revised script for the 2008 revival that I won on eBay has "Mama's talkin' loud" crossed out and replaced with "Mama's singin' out" as well.

[GavestonPS]

IIRC, the album was recorded after the London run, so I doubt Angela was flubbing lines at that point. I'm sure the change was deliberate, but I admit I never noticed it a year later during the weeks she did the show where I worked. (And I caught every performance, you can be sure.)

Good catch, Owen.

If I'd noticed the change, it would have solved my problem with that section: about whom is Rose singing? Herself? Her own mother? Both? Sondheim shrugs it off in FINISHING THE HAT, but I've always found the lyrics from "Mama's Talkin' Soft" a little confusing when inserted into "Rose's Turn".

[CATSNYrevival]

^Maybe Laurents changed it and Sondheim had him change it back?

[GavestonPS]

Or Jule Stein. I was told he conducted the recording.

* Stein should be "Styne". Thanks to Pal Joey for the kindly correction. Early-onset Alzheimer's is no laughing matter.

[ComingUpRoses2]

I've often wondered this. It's a good change, so why not keep it? "Mama's talkin' loud" just doesn't make sense with the cut song.

[PalJoey]

^Maybe Laurents changed it and Sondheim had him change it back?

Good guess, Cats, because that was often their dynamic, and despite being the director, Laurents would have had no legal right to change a lyric without Sondheim's permission.

The change makes sense, but if Arthur had lorded it over Steve, Steve and Jule might have objected, just because Arthur was being objectionable.

And Jule's last name is "Styne" with a "y" not "Stein" with an "e-i."

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Frankly, I've always wondered why songs that were problems for production reasons ("Momma's Talkin' Soft" and "Nice She Ain't," for example) weren't restored in later revivals.

[GavestonPS]

And Jule's last name is "Styne" with a "y" not "Stein" with an "e-i."

Of course it is and thank you, Pal Joey. He's only one of my favorite composers. I really shouldn't post quickly any more.

[GavestonPS]

Frankly, I've always wondered why songs that were problems for production reasons ("Momma's Talkin' Soft" and "Nice She Ain't," for example) weren't restored in later revivals.

I haven't heard the songs (except for the bit in "Rose's Turn") and I don't know. But GYPSY is about as perfectly structured as that style of musical can be. I know I wouldn't tamper with it.

[AEA AGMA SM]

I'd echo Gaveston's reasoning. Gypsy has had so little tinkering to its book done over the years that I see no reason for restoring cut music. The show works as is.

In all honesty it has never bothered me that "Rose's Turn" contains both lyrical and musical references to cut songs. In the hands of a great actress, and many times even in the hands of a lesser actress, the song works so well that I've never heard anyone who isn't intimately familiar with the history of the show even notice that those references are there and just accept it as part of the song itself.

[GavestonPS]

AEA, I said above that the "Mama" references puzzle me. But the truth is you're right: they only puzzle me when I think about them.

In performance, with a great Rose, I just accept that those lines mean something and go with the flow.

I like "Mama's singing out" because (now that it's been brought to my attention by Owen) it answers my questions, but I always thought Angela's "Rose's Turn" was thrilling!

(FWIW, I do not remember it being performed at quite that breakneck speed by 1976. On the recording, she can barely get the spoken lines said--which is ironic because people associated with the show complained bitterly to me that Jule Styne set most of the tempos on the recording too slow. :shrugs:)

[ljay889]

The LuPone album recorded the cut songs. I love the "Momma's Talkin Soft" version of "Small World." It is very charming, and I almost prefer it to the regular duet, which I sometimes find slightly boring.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

I don't think it would require much re-tooling of the book to fit these songs back in, as it was written with these songs as part of the show, and they were only cut because a) some kid was afraid of heights (staging for "Momma's Talkin' Soft" had them up in the flies), and b) Jack Klugman couldn't memorize the keys and staging in time for opening night ("Nice She Ain't"). I'm not saying to start over from square one and look at all of Laurents' drafts; it's slotting two songs back in that were already planned to be there, and one of them ("Momma...") wouldn't require much substantial change to the scene in which it was set.

ETA: Of course I would then go ahead, with Sondheim the last remaining creative on the show, and cut "Goldstone" except for the first line, because restoring those songs should cover the loss. Then you leave in the Kringelein scene, which Arthur was silly to cut, and "Little Lamb" becomes a break from that chaos.

[GavestonPS]

Far more experienced people than I have written that any time you add or cut a song, there are unintended and unexpected consequences. June and Louise already have one GREAT duet; their younger counterparts sing "Let Me Entertain You", a standard. Do we really need another song from the kids?

Since "Nice She Ain't" didn't make it into the show, nobody knows whether it will work or not. But I'm not sure anybody ever walked out of GYPSY saying, "You know, I really wanted to hear another song from that Herbie character."

[ComingUpRoses2]

As much as I love the deleted material, I just don't know if the show would flow as well with them put back in. It's amazing how even a delightful, fast paced song can slow down the pace of a show. I do like the Small World/Mama's Talkin' Soft, though. It could be interesting to stage. Maybe for the Streisand film?

[GavestonPS]

I have no objection if someone wants to try them, but does either song tell us something we don't already know?

I think we know what Rose is doing when she "talks soft" to Herbie.

Does he have some perspective on her in "Nice She Ain't" that we don't already know after 2 hours? Or is the point that his song tells us something about him? 'Cause I don't think his attraction to Rose is such a mystery: she makes life exciting.

[ComingUpRoses2]

I really don't think they add anything to the story and that is the problem. Gypsy is such a well written show that I can't imagine changing anything. There's not an ounce of fat on that show. I like most of Arthur's changes, except taking out the Kringoline/fake rape scene. The show's so dark that it needs all the comedy it can get.

[GavestonPS]

I don't know the fake-rape scene. Would we still find that sort of thing funny?

As for "Mr. Goldstone", I think Sondheim sells it short. Yes, it's a minor effort and the humor comes largely from the lyricist's attempt to come up with more variations on the man's name. But it works in context because it plays as if it is Rose who is straining in her excitement.

There are plenty of complex and heartfelt lyrics in the show. "Mr. Goldstone" is akin to comic relief.

[AEA AGMA SM]

I can't say that I've ever found the Kringelein scene to be in bad taste, and in actuality I found the build up to "Mr. Goldstone" in the last revival to be lacking without the craziness that scene caused. It didn't make sense to me that the lamb coming in early was enough to distract Rose from hearing that the act was booked on the Orpheum circuit. What I've always loved about the build-up was Rose just steam-rolling through Herbie introducing Mr. Goldstone and then the light bulb moment to begin the song, which made more sense when you had all the kids running around, the neighbors coming in to see the ruckus, and then of course the effort of scaring off Kringelein (and then the comedy moment of Herbie's "Again?" when she tells him what happened to let us know that this is far from the first time Rose has pulled such a stunt to get out of trouble with hotel managers).

[Auggie27]

The show really cannot support another moment without Rose being center stage. It's almost that simple to me. In act one Rose gets a break during "If Mama Were Married..." and "All I Need..." and another number, no matter who sings it, would seriously interfere with the focus of the show and its through-line.