So that Dan Savage/Brian Brown debate happened

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

I'm surprised this sort of passed with not much noise. I just got done watching it. They're both respectful, but Dan pretty much owns Brown here.

But it's not like you're going to hear anything you've never heard before. Savage makes all the same, sane, salient points and Brown regurgitates all the same nonsense about redefining traditional marriage, and think of the children and everything else you've heard 900 times.

"Google it! Google it, people! All these things you say have been debunked."


Dan Savage vs. Brian Brown: The Dinner Table Debate

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Here's a highlight reel if you don't want to watch the whole thing, but I can't vouch that it's an accurate representation of the debate since it's NOM and they adverstised the debate like this:





Look at the pinky!


Highlight Reel

[strummergirl]

I watched it a couple of days ago. Basically echoing your thoughts. Dan bringing up that his son DJ was considered and denied adoption by two straight couples really drove it home, and Brown never even tried to deny that point and went into the same talking points.

[JohnBoy2]

Who are they?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Fuck off.

Brown's blog (I recommend a skim, because it's way too long)
Same as it ever was

[EricMontreal22]

Oy at that blog. So he basically feels the need to debate his opinions again, when he can't even answer? Why not just put up the video and let people decide, if that was the point?

I did find it disappointing--as said, it was basically the same points again and again (from Savage as well, it's just I don't see much point in Brown simply saying things like that he has "natural law" on his side, and leaving it at that--some debate). The comments I did read are expected, but infuriating (Brian, how could you debate someone filled with such hate, he needs the love of God, bla bla bla yawn).

[Jordan Catalano]

I just don't see what the point of these "debates" are anymore. Each side tells the other they're wrong and they argue. It's the same thing I did every day in my 11th grade debt class.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

"I spoke with Mr. Brown by phone, and he seemed to agree that the setting had made little difference. "There�s this myth that folks like me, we don�t know any gay people, and if we just met them, we would change our views,� he said. "But the notion that if you have us into your house, that all that faith and reason that we have on our side, we will chuck it out and change our views � that�s not the real world.�

So there you have it.





A waste of time for all concerned

[thetinymagic2]

It's called religious indoctrination vs. education. By educating oneself, one has to open up the mind.....
BTW, the body language of both of them was tres interesting, but I thought Dan shouldv'e dressed nicer and more conservatively than the douchebag. THAT would have cracked me up.

Dan was sooooo polite, I hardly recognized him.

[Roscoe]

Which only means that these bigots cannot be dealt with in any reasonable way -- such extreme hate will never change. Ever.

And frankly, Savage really should have figured this out by now. Did he really think Brian Brown was going to suddenly see the light and stop hating the gays?

[JoeKv99]

"You make a good point that has caused me to reexamine my lifetime of beliefs" said no one, ever.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Well, no, I certainly never thought that, but Brian's point about how people think if homophobes just got to know some gay people, it would plant the seeds for change is certainly a line that I've seen repeated on this board in some form many times. I've never agreed with it and this is far from the first example I've seen proving my point.

[Reginald Tresilian]

I would never expect it from people who have made harming LGBT folks their life's work, no.

But I do think it often works with more casual homophobes, just as it often works with people who are prejudiced against others because of race.

I've known that to be the case in my own life.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Alas, I've only really known the opposite. I've known too many people who after getting to know gay people still believe it's their right and duty to vote against them, and see no problem with that.

[JoeKv99]

I guess I've hoped that it would be the case- my "go to" argument on the subject is always to personalize it. If someone posts a douchy Facebook status I bring it around to me. This is the right that is being denied- do you really mean to deny it to me and Dan, even after knowing us so well, inviting us to dinner, etc. etc. I am stunned how many people are like "Well, you're OK but you can't get married" or whatever.

I kind of picture German neighbors standing in the front yard as the Jews are taken away saying "Don't worry I'll water your plants."

[Reginald Tresilian]

I'm specifically thinking of a dear friend's rabidly homophobic Argentine finace (now husband), who didn't even want to met my boyfriend and me. She basically told him it wasn't optional.

Within a few short months of our meeting, she told us that now, when he says "Do you want to go out?" he means to our place.

Also, his devoutly Catholic parents, who also were very wary of interacting with us, asked when we were getting married when we saw her shortly after it was made legal in NY.

I know these might be isolated incidents, but I still am encouraged by them.

[EricMontreal22]

"But I do think it often works with more casual homophobes, just as it often works with people who are prejudiced against others because of race.

I've known that to be the case in my own life."

As have I. This is probably not the best analogy, but my great grandma who paassed away about 10 years ago at the age of 103 was a casual, yet still strong, racist. I grew up just kinda wincing and ignoring her casual remarks about "those chinks", and blaming them for everyone (where we grew up, the only real non-white population was Asian). The last decade of her life, she ended up, much to her protest, with a nurse who had just moved to Canada from Hong Kong. You saw the progression--at first she would kinda imply that her nurse (who she quickly grew to love) was merely a rare exception, but gradually her whole attitude seemed to change.

Many have pointed out that despite the youth bullying, younger generations in the US are much more open to gay marriage and equal rights than older ones. And really most of that just comes from exposure. Shows like Will and Grace may not be the best role models, I suppose, but every little thing like that does make a difference.

Phyllis linked the NYT piece by the guy who chaired the debate, and I agree nearly completely with whathe said. But that piece had a link to a piece by Mr. Brown�s former ally, David Blankenhorn, the founder of the Institute for American Values, who HAS changed his stance on gay marriage. He hasn't done a complete turn around (and unlike Brown, his focus, one I don't fully agree on but do have more respect for, is on the importance for society and children of *marriage* in any form, not of using it as an excuse to preach the bible), but he has changed his stance. And actually he mentions that part of the reasoning is you simply do have to give in to some of the positive changes of the time, that you can see with youth's attitude, etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/opinion/how-my-view-on-gay-marriage-changed.html

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Reg, I have personal examples, too. Gay friends whose mothers live them and their partners but still voted for the amendment that keeps them from marrying. I wonder if my being in the Midwest makes a difference.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Phyllis, I'm sure you do. I wasn't denying your experience at all.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

I know you weren't, baby.

[Reginald Tresilian]

And I knew you knew that. Mainly my point was that I don't have a Pollyanna vision of how this all works. I just have a few success stories that give me hope.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

I've been pretty lucky so far in this respect, in my whole life so far it's been a total non-issue - that's why I'm so optimistic for the future, I guess. It's not that I think we can change the existing evil bigots, I just think they are a dying breed.

I had my first direct experience of homophobia only about six weeks ago, at a Madonna concert of all places - I inadvertently pushed against a middle-aged woman and she called me a "stupid faggot."

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

That's terrible, but at the same time it's heartening to know that that's your first real brush with it. My experience has been quite different, which I know colors my world-view.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

That's too bad, Phyllis. If the Michelle Bachmanns and Brian Browns of this world mean that other people have to go through that shIt, then that makes me very, very sad.

Edit: an obvious and inane thing to say, but grrr...it's frustrating.

[JoeKv99]

I think we have to abduct homophobes children and indoctrinate them into the gay lifestyle. That's how the catholic church does it and they are doing great.