Che in

[Owen22]

I know it was discussed a while ago, when it was announced that Grandage's production of "Evita" was making Che an "everyman" Argentine and that Tim Rice had originally NOT intended for Che to be Che Guevera. There were many posts that indicated that was bull, for stated reasons. I saw the show tonight and one reason that wasn't mentioned was in "Waltz For Eva and Che" Eva dismisses Che by telling him to "go if you're able to somewhere unstable/whip up your hate in some tottering state...". That line seems way too Che Guevera specific...

[The Scorpion]

It's not bull. The 'Che' in the concept recording was very much *based* on Guevara, but he was not explicitly identified as such in order to allow him to be an everyman. Dressing him up to be Guevara and adding lines like 'just a man who grew and saw/from seventeen to twenty-four/his country bled, crucified...' was a decision made by Hal Prince.

[temms]

Explain how these lyrics Che sings on the concept album can be considered the plight of an "Everyman":

"But Eva's not the only one who's getting the breaks;
I'm a research chemist who's got what it takes,
And my insecticide's gonna be a bestseller.

Yeah, just one blast and the insects fall like flies
Kapow! Die! They don't have a chance!
In the fly-killing world it's a major advance!
In my world it'll mean finance:
I'm shaping up successful capital-S-wise!...

Now my insecticide contains no dangerous drugs.
It can't harm humans, but it's curtains for bugs.
If you've got six legs, I ain't doin' you no favor."

Vendaval was an insecticide Ernesto "Che" Guevara unsuccessfully tried to market as a roach killer while a young man before he turned revolutionary. The character was Guevara all along.

The idea that he was intended to be an Everyman is one of those things an ill-informed author wrote somewhere that now gets passed on as truth, like how Charles Strouse and Lee Adams ghostwrote "Before The Parade Passes By" for Jerry Herman, or how Yvonne DeCarlo never sang the correct lyrics for "I'm Still Here", or how Bernadette Peters was out of Gypsy more often than she was in, etc.

[The Scorpion]

The character was based on Guevara. Rice definitely had Guevara in mind but he was not explicitly Guevara.

Unfortunately I don't have my copy on me at the moment, but I have a feeling Rice explains this in his autobiography. Next time I have access to my copy I'll double check.

One 'fact' that does get passed around everywhere even though it's not true is that Rice based his libretto on Mary Main's anti-Peronist biography of Eva called The Woman With the Whip. Although Rice did read the book and called it "a superb biography", he has stated several times that he did not find out about the book until after Evita had already been written. Most of his research came from a TV documentary called Queen of Hearts.

[Wishing Only Wounds]

I believe Owen is pretty correct. I've read in several places how Che was simply a narrator, and that Prince expanded on.

[My Oh My]

"It's not bull. The 'Che' in the concept recording was very much *based* on Guevara, but he was not explicitly identified as such in order to allow him to be an everyman."

But the Concept Album was just that, a general idea that, although never explicitly stated, is generally understood to be a work in its early stages that will most likely see revisions should it ever be deemed worthy enough for the stage. After all, it would have to be adapted for the stage just as Evita's concept album was.

To me, it is blatantly obvious who "Che" was meant to be, and arguing that this was never explicitly stated is only stating the obvious considering it's, well, a concept album.

The point is that Che as in Che Guevara had been a key figure in the musical even dating as far back as in the show's early release to the public. I don't think any serious consideration to him being an everyman came about until a film version began to be discussed about. I could be wrong and not claiming to be an authority on the subject but it can't get any more obvious who they meant to represent with this "Che" person. I mean, come on.

[temms]

Thank you, My Oh My. I don't understand why people seem to have so much invested in this "He was never meant to be Che Guevara!" argument when it is quite obviously the case that he was.

Wishing Only Wounds, can you explain to me how including the specific biographical information that the Narrator of "Evita" was a chemistry student who unsuccessfully tried to market insecticide goes along with the character being an Everyman? That is information very specific to the life of Ernesto Guevara. If this was an "Everyman", why give him any biographical background at all? Why name the character Che, give this "Che" the same life story as the well-known Che, and then insist that it's not the same Che?

I'm going to contradict The Scorpion and say that yes, the idea that Che was originally not conceived to be Guevara is, in fact, bull. Hal Prince may have been the one to decide to costume him in the iconic beret and fatigues, but that decision came from what was already in the libretto.

[Jimbob2]

I think the crux of this is that Che Guevara wasn't 'Che Guevara' at that point in his life (just plain Ernesto) - so Rice was able to be creatively teasing with the identity of the character. Any doubt also plays into the idea that the Mistress might have ended up where Eva was rather than disappearing into the crowd after a brief moment in the spotlight - or did she lack the 'little touch of star quality' that Eva and Guevara had? Directors can play it one of three ways: Either the icon 'Che' as Hal Prince chose, dressed as the revolutionary; Everyman, as in the current production on Broadway; or Ernesto Guevara as a young man and not yet the iconic revolutionary. I'm not sure the latter has been done, and I suppose you could only indicate it if the actor were dressed as the iconic Che at the funeral (both beginning and end of the show) but discarded it for his younger days watching Eva's rise (false beard nightmares!). 'Everyman' seems the weakest of these to me - what's to be done with the lines that are specific to Guevara? Who wouldn't want them played with meaning? Ironically Prince removed most of the specific textual references to the real Che Guevara, but replaced them with the unmistakeable iconography.

I have Tim Rice's biog in front of me. He talks about Mario the hairdresser narrator being replaced by Che when Rice discovered a book on famous Latin American figures that featured Eva, and Che Guevara.

"The opportunity to include two Argentine icons in one story was too good to miss. I was also keen to point out that in his own way Guevara was just as ambitious, self-obsessed, fanatical and intolerant as Evita. All the same, my initial outline for the show's structure, completed by mid-1974, and featuring Mario, was not changed greatly by the subsitution of Che as narrator/critic".

"Although I am well aware that Guevara never met Eva, it is more than likely that his subsequent career was at least in part influenced by his early life under, and distaste for, the Peron regime. Indeed, in our original recording of the work, we never even stated that the narrator was Guevara. He was referred to simply as 'Che', a nickname in Argentina roughly equivalent to the English 'mate'".

That use of 'indeed' is odd as it doesn't follow from the previous sentence that seems to assert his keenness for it to be Che Guevara - so he's not helping BroadwayWorld disussion resolution very much! The main indicator of Guevara is the addition of Che's attempted pesticide business/invention (on the concept album).

"Delighted to find that he had once espoused Capitalist leanings, I decided (still without actually saying our Che was Che Guevara) to incorporate this strange ambition into the show, enabling us to suggest that Che and Eva were cut from the same grasping cloth, implying that Che had only become a revolutionary after failing to make a million".

He later says that Hal Prince "insisted on presenting Che as Guevara rather than as an anonymous Argentine who could have been Che Guevara but equally Che Sidebottom". He doesn't complain about this at all, but it does show that another way is legitimate and most likely the way Tim Rice had imagined it while writing i.e more characteristics of (and lyric references to) the young Ernesto 'Che' Guevara than Hal Prince included, but with some uncertainty remaining by dressing him as an ordinary guy in the street.

I think it sounds like a fudge, so I'm with Hal. However, there is no doubt whatsoever that Rice had Guevara in mind, both in detail, lyric references, and his own (possibly politically motivated) enjoyment of taking a sideways look at an icon.

[AEA AGMA SM]

I'm sure it doesn't help this discussion/perception that in the souvenir program for this revival it states that the Guevara aspect of Che evolved during pre-production for the original production, and that "Che" was initially used as an Argentinian equivalent to "mate," as somebody else stated.

[CarlosAlberto]

it so convoluted at this point does it really even matter anymore.
i think that in any given production of the piece it is clearly up to the director. clearly the option is there: (a) he will be played as che guevara or (b) he will be played as "everyman".