Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 08:46:03
We all know this happens. Because producers and directors don't have the balls to go for true quality.
Also, they forget that it is easy to create stars.
For example, Russel Crowe in Les Miserables. It might be nice for a small group of people in their 40's to see a face they have seen before, but the whole new generation (under 25) is like, what the hell is that guy doing in this film?
Because no matter how you put it, there are many people (almost all of the people in the audience, according to the reviews), that were NOT pulled into the story by this actor, because of his inability to sing and act through song.
My point is, that I TRULY believe that if they had taken a better singer/actor for this role, the film would be more successful, because only then the audience comes along in the journey. It will get more people emotionally involved with the film and the rest comes naturally. This is what makes or breaks a musical film.
Of course there will be many more musicalfilms made in the future and I hope they have the guts to cast the most suitable people for a role, and then realize the film will be even more epic.
For example, Miss Saigon. Of course Cameron is enthusiastically, with his arms wide open, running to Hugh Jackman again because they know eachother and he is a name, but really, there are better people for the role of the Engineer. People that can make this the best film in history. Someone like BD Wong.
The story is the star, and I think this is the secret.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2012-12-31 09:02:40
While agreee that Crowe was the weak link, he SHOULD have been really great in the part -- but he wasn't.
However, it comes to this: if they can't get people IN the seats, it doesn't matter how good it is. And if they spend the money to MAKE it good, there won't keep throwing the $$ into musicals when too many are box office failures. Those of us that will see it JUST because its a musical, are too few.
It's a business, pure and simple.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 09:58:29
I believe true quality eventually means better business.
Think about the thousands and thousands of people who have seen the film and tell all their family and friends, Russel Crowe couldn't sing, it was actually kind of embarrassing.
Now, imagine if they would tell their family and friends, WOW, the guy playing Javert was so amazing, you really should go see it!
Word of mouth is very important. "Names" are very time and area-limited. Times have changed. People really don't care what someone has done before, they want quality.
This is what could keep the film successful for years, maybe even stand the test of time, instead of ending up like the Phantom of the Opera film.
The handful of people who go "Let's see the gladiator in a musical" is NOT the audience you want to do this for. Javerts performance should be epic, unforgettable and extremely well sung. Even that handful of Gladiator fans would enjoy that more.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2012-12-31 10:09:16
And most people are loving the film. Yes, most say he is weak, but I have yet to hear one person say: well I was GOING to go, but since Javert isn't up to par, I'm seeing Road Trip instead.
HERE we are critcizing him and lots of the movie, but the underlying feeling here is still: its a very good film, and we're glad they made it and that its worth seeing.
Out of all the posts my FB friends have made: I've seen ONE that was disappointed in the film. ONE.
And people are NOT as likely to see a film when they haven't heard of the actors. Names DO sell movies and many b'way tickets. Likewise: just because they are names, doesn't mean they lack talent, or integrity.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by jasonf 2012-12-31 10:10:09
That's not how the movie industry generally works, though. There are plenty of movies with no-name casts that are excellent, but they're little seen. However, far worse movies with big names will frequently make a lot of money at the box office BECAUSE of those names. The studio that made Les Mis did it to make money. If they can get a star into a role, it's going to get more people into the theater.
An argument may be made they had a lot of stars already, why did they need another, but that's a minor point relatively speaking.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by SporkGoddess 2012-12-31 11:00:59
On the other hand, it can have negative effects if you have too many big names (films like New Year's Eve, for instance). I think that it's probably a bell curve.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 11:02:59
"And most people are loving the film. Yes, most say he is weak, but I have yet to hear one person say: well I was GOING to go, but since Javert isn't up to par, I'm seeing Road Trip instead.
"
Yes, luckily most people are loving the film, even though the Javert is not very good. Imagine how much the world would have loved the film if he was very good too.
The amount of negativity about his performance really hurts the film in my opinion, and that cannot be what the producers want.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 11:06:33
You're dealing in hypotheticals. You have no idea what business the film would be doing if it had a cast of unknowns.
Generally, films with unknown actors do not do well. This is just the way it is. People don't want to shell out money for something that they don't trust.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2012-12-31 11:07:24
I think the producers care about the box office. And there is NO way that they thought his performance was wonderful before it hit the screen. They saw the potential as did many of us.
Unless you can prove that his performance is hurting the box office, than your point is moot.
Sure creating art is important -- but not for the studios. Success comes from $.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 11:15:45
Then there is also the point of "how big" is a name?
BD Wong (A perfect Engineer in my opinion) performed on Broadway too, and in several bigger films than Hugh Jackman.
Seven years in Tibet, Jurassic Park, tv series Law&Order, The x-files etc.
He is probably more well known around the world than Hugh Jackman.
But I still say it shouldn't even matter when someone fits the part THAT well as Mr Wong does.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 11:20:08
...if you think BD Wong is better known around the world than Sexiest Man Alive Wolverine, you are not living on the same world as the rest of us.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Johnnycantdecide 2012-12-31 11:25:30
First off, it's you're opinion that Crowe was not good in the film. You do not get to have the definitive word on it. I loved Crowe and so did a great number of my friends,
Second, I stopped taking you seriously and began to think you are 100% delusional when you said that BD Wong is a bigger name than Hugh Jackman.
Third, this whole quality will win in the end is unfortunately just not true. Not even for Broadway. Wicked is still running and Grey Gardens/ Caroline or Change have both closed.
This thread is just someone's bitter musings.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by ucjrdude902 2012-12-31 11:27:23
I'm a fan of L&O: SVU and didn't know who BD Wong was till I Googled him. He is no where near the star power of Hugh.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by darquegk 2012-12-31 11:29:22
Any half-Asian who can sing a bit and play sleazy, sexually ambiguous and tragicomic can play the role exactly as well as BD Wong, because the role of The Engineer is not Javert. Even on Broadway, the Engineer barely "sings." He speak-sings, crows, roars, snarls and sneers more than he ever out-and-out sings.
BD Wong is good, I'll never deny that. But to classify The Engineer as a role that needs a brilliant actor-singer the way Valjean or Javert do is to mistake the way that role is written and played. It's much more in line with the Thenardier track.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 11:33:31
For the record, according to Box Office Mojo, Hugh Jackman's films have grossed almost 4 billion dollars worldwide. And that's including Les Mis' current worldwide gross.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Box Office Mojo does not have a page for B.D. Wong.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by SporkGoddess 2012-12-31 11:55:15
The very fact that the Engineer doesn't have to be a good singer is what makes me want a comedian in the role. And, no, I don't mean Sacha Baron Cohen.
But I've already discussed this in the Miss Saigon movie cast thread, haha.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 12:11:17
Well Kad and Johnny, I have news for you.
I am from Europe and the whole "Wolverine thing" doesn't quite work over here. The tv series "Law & Order" are very popular over here, so yes, BD Wong is more well known over here.
My whole family knows who he is and they did not know who Hugh Jackman was.
Don't you think more people have seen "Seven years in Tibet" and "Jurassic Park" and "Law & Order" and "The x-files" than "Wolverine" in the USA too?
Please stop the tunnel vision. Most people do not even know what Wolverine is, though it may be hard to understand for you as I suppose you are a big fan.
But anyway, it seems like all of us live in their own world and a big name for one does not mean a big name for another.
Was Amanda Seyfried a big name because of Mamma Mia? Good. Then Aaron Tveit is a big name now too, because of Les Miserables. Let's cast him as Chris.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by jasonf 2012-12-31 12:19:27
"Don't you think more people have seen "Seven years in Tibet" and "Jurassic Park" and "Law & Order" and "The x-files" than "Wolverine" in the USA too?
Please stop the tunnel vision. Most people do not even know what Wolverine is, though it may be hard to understand for you as I suppose you are a big fan."
Here are the worldwide box office numbers for the X-Men movies - http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/X-Men
I think people know who Wolverine is.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 12:25:06
Let me ask you guys a personal question.
Really, what would you prefer?
A well know actor in the role which would never have gotten the role if he wasn't known? (Russel Crowe for example)
Or a lesser known actor that is perfect for the role and can sweep you off your feet with his acting through song?
Because I think it is easy to create stars.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 12:32:16
If there's anyone here with tunnel vision, it's you.
It's NOT about what we prefer. It's about what makes MONEY.
Russell Crowe is an Academy Award winning actor. His films have grossed over 2 billion worldwide.
Anne Hathaway is an Academy Award nominated actress. His films have grossed over 4 billion worldwide.
Sacha Baron Cohen. Over 3 billion. Bonham Carter- almost 7 billion, though aided substantially by Burton and Harry Potter.
And I don't even really care about X-Men and saw none of the films in theaters.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 12:35:55
So we should be glad that Anne did some other films, because otherwise the producers and director would have completely ignored her talent on the audition.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by jasonf 2012-12-31 12:36:52
Exactly. I don't think anyone here disagrees that an "unknown" would have made a better Javert (or at least most of us). But you're arguing more money could be made by an unknown who was good than a known actor who was decent. That simply isn't true.
If it was, don't you think theater would be more mainstream huge than it is in general? We love theater, we talk to people about it, but that doesn't mean people are busting down doors to get in to see Norbert Leo Butz in Dead Accounts (as an example)
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 12:37:23
If she had no substantial credits to her name? Yes.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 12:41:38
What a waste of talent! Who knows how many perfect performances were flushed down the toilet because of this......
And I think the reason musicals are not mainstream is because the audiences don't get introduced to real quality through film. Until now, because there are some good performances in Les Mis. But also some bad ones. And the aim should be to go for the best. Creating stars is the best thing to do.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 12:44:45
You are so incredibly naive of how Hollywood works.
You now what is Anne Hathaway's second top grossing film is? The horrible Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland. It made over a billion dollars worldwide. It is a film with no redeemable qualities. It made a billion dollars.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 12:46:50
I know how it works.
Money over quality.
But I do not intend to give in. As long as I live I will fight for quality.
I also think they hurt themselves more than they realize. All of the bad word of mouth about Russel can't be good for the ticket sales. Although I realize too that most people don't care, because as this (casting names that can't sing) is the case with all the musical films, the audiences don't know any better and swallow everything, no matter how bad it is, and therefore the ticket sales will stagnate, as they don't draw in bigger audiences with quality.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 12:48:21
You need money to make the quality.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2012-12-31 12:49:24
Dave19---you lost me in your second paragraph with this:
Also, they forget that it is easy to create stars.
You really think this is true? Okay, go out and "create" a star. See how far you get.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 12:56:21
It is easy for the producers and director to create stars.
The role of Kim is a "star maker". The girls name will be big after the film. I'm talking about a Julie Andrews in Mary Poppins. About the fight against the nay sayers who did not want Julie in the film at the time because she was no big movie star, and simply wanted to take a lesser talented girl because of that. Wrong. Very wrong.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 13:00:50
You'll probably get an unknown as Kim because there aren't exactly many big-name, young Asian movie stars.
But you'll see the rest of the cast padded out with big names to supplement it. Not unlike Hairspray.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 13:09:40
Roles in general are starmakers as long as they get cast well.
A Chris that isn't a fantastic singer will ruin Miss Saigon.
A Chris that is a fantastic singer will make the role soar. And the actor will become a star.
People like Russel Crowe should also worry about their status because wrong choices like this can really hurt his career. His so called "star-power".
Maybe I just have too much respect for this business and music and film in general. Maybe I should just follow the cattle and agree that not taking on Taylor Swift for the role of Eponine was a mistake as I'm sure she would have sold a couple of hundred more tickets. And don't care about the timeless quality of the film at all.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by jasonf 2012-12-31 13:28:17
Russell Crowe is walking away from Les Mis unscathed - his star power hasn't been hurt in the least from this movie.
Was Pierce Brosnan's career harmed from Mamma Mia? He was pretty terrible there, yet still gets cast regularly.
Is Samantha Barks going to be a star now?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Kad 2012-12-31 13:30:46
Crowe's career didn't suffer for that terrible Robin Hood, which bombed.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2012-12-31 13:50:34
As long as you're happy with "getting away with it"......
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by henrikegerman 2012-12-31 14:04:08
It's not one or the other. Neither box office, ability nor rightness to do a role. But all of them. And it's an imperfect science. Sometimes casting a big star works well. Other times making big stars from people who are ideal for the role but less known. It's a combination of these imperatives. Quality doesn't always win out in the marketplace, but it sometimes does. I'd like to believe if Oliver! were made today with a cast as little known (none of whom had big careers after either), and as good, and if it were as good a film, it would be a huge success. But, hey, that's Oliver! Les Mis may be quite a different matter. That doesn't change the fact that there are also big stars who should be doing musicals, and sometimes a big star who isn't the best musical performer can still be a revelation in the right role. Rene Zellweger may not be the greatest singer or dancer on the planet; far from it. But she was a superb Roxie.
Frankly, I thought Crowe was good if not great in the film (and I think the same of Jackman). He would have probably sung the part much more to satisfaction if it had not been live sung. The live singing made it much more important to have a Javert with a more natural musicality and a far better voice than Crowe's. Not that I'm finding fault with the live singing choice but it did make casting more important.
The best performance in the movie for me is Barks's. And I hope it does make her a star.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2012-12-31 14:54:29
How are you "not giving in"? Are you not going to see any movie that has big names in it? Only go to art houses to see small budget films? Whining on a dicussion board isn't going to create any sort of change.
Again: on paper Crowe SHOULD have made a wonderful Javert. They don't know for sure until the film comes together that he didn't. (and yes, there are GADS of people that liked his performance.)
Stars are not made from ONE performance. One performance opens the door to other possibilities and the success of those determines stardom. Being the sweetheart du jour is short lived. And by your standard, it's the role that is important not the performer. No matter who they cast as Kim is going to be a star? Even Anne Hathaway wasn't a star after her first film, but she was smart and continued to look for varied work that combined made her the name she is today -- same with Meryl Streep or most other actors and actresses. It is their body of work that create high demand stars.
I love that you think you are so vastly superior to everyone else because you won't stand for anything less than a perfectly cast and perfectly executed film -- full of nobodies (beause you seem to think that stars are incapable of delivering a worthwhile performance). And who determines when it has been done so? When it means with your personaly approval? It's called OPINION.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by bobs3 2012-12-31 15:11:37
Dave19 wrote: "All of the bad word of mouth about Russel can't be good for the ticket sales."
The bad word of mouth is only coming from fanatics and theatre queens on this board. Most people don't care and most people don't read this board. In fact most people seeing "Les Miserables" have heard of it but probably have little knowledge of the plot or the songs. Most audiences across this country are going to see the movie because it has Wolverine, Gladiator and Catwoman in the leads with Borat and Bellatrix thrown in as an added plus.
Why is "I Dreamed a Dream" being used in all of the television ads? Because of a hit single by Susan Boyle, that's why.
99.99% of the people seeing this movie have never heard of Aaron Tviet or Samantha Barks and 99.99% will walk out the theater still having no idea who Aaron Tviet and Samantha Barks are.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Jane2 2012-12-31 15:36:43
"For example, Russel Crowe in Les Miserables. It might be nice for a small group of people in their 40's to see a face they have seen before, but the whole new generation (under 25) is like, what the hell is that guy doing in this film?"
'Small group of people in their 40's?" Russell Crowe is a big name oscar winning actor whose work is known and liked by millions of people whose ages span several decades, and not a "small group of people in their 40's" Where did you get that idea? oy
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2012-12-31 15:40:49
Just one of the many ignorant statements Dave19 has made. Which shows both his lack of knowledge and his lack of experience.
But you know the few over 40 dinosaurs roaming around that are just grateful to recognize a face in our advanced years.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-31 15:48:22
But I do not intend to give in. As long as I live I will fight for quality.
Will you join in his crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with him?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by YouWantitWhen???? 2012-12-31 15:59:30
Who will finance a film complete with
unknowns for none to see.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-31 16:10:23
Maybe next time a big movie musical is made they could shoot a second version at night when the set is closed to the main movie. They can cast all theatre actors and it will only add seventy dollars to the budget and then they could release that on dvd.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by CarlosAlberto 2012-12-31 16:20:02
I don't mind them casting big box office names in movie musicals as long as the stars that are cast are right for their roles and do justice to the material.
Jamie Foxx is a big box office draw and coming off a victorious Oscar win for his performance in "Ray" when he was chosen to play "Curtis Taylor, Jr." in "Dreamgirls" and he was great in it.
Eddie Murphy was excellent as "James 'Thunder' Early".
Meryl Streep was wonderful in "Mamma Mia!"
and dare I add Minnie Driver into the mix? True she's not in the same box office league as Foxx, Murphy or Streep but as the only instantly recognizable name in the film version of "The Phantom of the Opera" she was the one true highlight of that movie...and she was dubbed!!
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Joviedamian 2012-12-31 16:27:41
There was an article on here or on playbill.com that I read, asking Sir Cameron Mackintosh on why he did'nt cast Taylor Swift in the role of "Eponine,because of her large fan base that could generate lots of money for the film...his response was "Les Miserables is the star, we just didn't need that".
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by CarlosAlberto 2012-12-31 16:29:52
And yet they cast Russell Crowe. He should have taken care of his "star" better. Who does he think he's kidding?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by AEA AGMA SM 2012-12-31 16:52:24
"It is easy for the producers and director to create stars."
Yeah, because Nikki Blonsky has just had the best career EVER after the producers and directors made her a star with Hairspray.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by bobs3 2012-12-31 16:53:15
^ That's a like!
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2012-12-31 17:50:49
Ellen Greene, Anika Noni Rose, Emmy Rossum, Allison Reed, Sally Ann Howes, Shani Wallis, and Aileen Quinn were all positioned for instant "movie stardom" by studios. They all continue to work and have had admirable careers, but they are not bankable movie stars, any of them.
See how easy it is to make a star?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-31 18:41:44
Dave, as Kad can explain better than I, names are important because they draw paying viewers to the opening weekend, raising the initial gross and getting the movie reported as a smash hit in a media-dominated world.
It's just a fact that most people in the industrialized world get a lot of their "word of mouth" from TV or the internet rather than chats in the village square.
So reports that LES MIZ is the "highest grossing musical since Thanksgiving" often IS the "word of mouth" that counts most in terms of drawing future crowds.
And your initial statement that artistic quality equals box office gross is just--well, you cannot believe that.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by James885 2012-12-31 18:46:05
Wow, the OP really is clueless as to how the entertainment industry functions.
The statement about how easy it is to make a star is absolutely crazy.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by CHOOKA2 2012-12-31 19:34:06
Am I the only person who goes to a movie--any type-- only for the content/material/story??Who is in the film comes waaaaay down my list of reasons for seeing a film--most of the time I have never heard of most of the actors except for the ones that are always in the tabloids[?] because they have a new baby or dog.
PS--I went to Les Mis to see the film--not because of who was in it.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-31 19:42:28
I'm sure you're not the only one, Chooka, but I must admit that I have a short-list of actors I trust to choose quality projects. Meryl Streep movies aren't always classics, but it's rare that she makes something is a complete waste of my time.
If I had been raised by wolves and had never heard of LES MISERABLES, the combination of Jackman, Crowe and Hathaway would have been enough to draw me to the theater.
***
BTW, if Europe is now watching LAW AND ORDER SVU, then on behalf of the United States, I apologize.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2012-12-31 22:09:27
SOME actors will make a film higher on my list, but I have never gone to a movie JUST because any individual actor appeared in it. However, there are many movie goers that would ONLY go to certain movies BECAUSE of who is in it.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Joviedamian 2013-01-01 15:00:49
^^^ That is correct dramamama, just like folks who go see theater for a certain star that is in the production.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by yankeefan7 2013-01-01 15:13:38
What gets me is that they had big names in Jackman and Hathaway so was Crowe really necessary?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by jimmycurry01 2013-01-01 15:17:01
This is a business. Studios invest millions in these films and need to see a return. More often than not, this means you need big name actors. Quality alone, does not equal money in the bank; if it did, more independent films would be raking in the bucks. You look at films as art because you have that luxury, producers are not so lucky. They need to see films as products to sell. While big names don't guarantee a hit, they do help significantly. This is a sad reality, and you can either accept it, or don't see these movies.
Clearly, the box office returns for Les Mis are currently indicating that the studio made the right choices here, whether you agree with those choices or not.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by ComingUpRoses2 2013-01-01 15:19:14
I understand a few stars in the mix to help box office, but in the case of something like, say, Nine, it hurt the film (so did the crappy script and cuts to the score.) Rob Marshall was too concerned with booking big stars rather than making the musical numbers work.
Chicago was a case of everyone being well cast, so the fact that they were "stars" didn't bother me one bit. Hairspray, too, although Travolta wasn't quite ideal.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by yankeefan7 2013-01-01 15:25:37
jimmycurry01 - No problem with getting big names but they should be able to handle their role vocally especially the role of Javert. The box office is a reflection of generally pretty positive reviews of the movie and glowing reviews regarding Hathaway's performance. Most people I know that were interested in seeing movie could have cared less who was in the film, they just loved the story and music. I guess my point is that Jackman and Hathaway are stars but they can sing, Crowe can't IMO.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 15:45:02
Kad: "You need money to make the quality".
Not really true for this subject. I bet Taylor Swift would have asked more money for the role of Eponine than Samantha Barks.
Money has actually not much to do with quality.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 15:53:08
Cameron Mackintosh on why he did'nt cast Taylor Swift in the role of "Eponine,because of her large fan base that could generate lots of money for the film...his response was "Les Miserables is the star, we just didn't need that".
I wish he meant that but then he went for Russel Crowe and Amanda Seyfried.
About the "it's easy to create stars" thing;
If someone is magnificent in a role, then that is a star performance. Even if that person never works again, because truthful casting directors just never foung another perfect role for that person, he/she is still a star in that role.
"Star" is very time-limited, people change, generations change, only a certain quality in a certain role will stand the test of time. Being a star in a certain role does NOT mean being a star in another role, so the "star" subject should stay out of the casting room at all times!
It's all about finding the right person, at the right time, for the right role.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by yankeefan7 2013-01-01 15:53:45
CHOOKA2 I agree with you 100%.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 15:56:58
Chooka2:
"Am I the only person who goes to a movie--any type-- only for the content/material/story??Who is in the film comes waaaaay down my list of reasons for seeing a film"
Yeah, me too.
Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots who don't.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by jimmycurry01 2013-01-01 16:02:03
Those of us who see movies for content and story are indeed the minority. The Transformers franchise alone should answer that question.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 16:09:14
Producers and studios don't make movies to lose money just so they can get the perfect person for a part.
I think a lot of this passion comes from youth, and primarily from an academic/school environment where you are taught if you score the highest score and jump the highest jump and perform the best on your "test" you will be rewarded.
The real world doesn't work that way. The person who is "best" for a job doesn't always get it. It happens all the time. Many other things factor into it. And that's a big (and often harsh) wake-up call to younger people once they leave the academic world and join the rest of society.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2013-01-01 16:10:42
Sorry, your opinion doesn't make YOU right or others wrong. What's wrong with someone liking an actor's work enough to see them any movie that sounds slightly appealing? It's just a different way at looking at it.
No one's REASONS for seeing one film over another is any better than another's. Different strokes.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 16:13:01
To me, the test of a real "movie star" isn't an actor who plays a big role in a blockbuster franchise. We can all argue that the franchise itself is the "star," and they just came along for the ride and played their part to help get it there.
(Check out the "movie star" careers of Carrie Fisher and Mark Hammil, vs. a movie star like Harrison Ford to see the difference in how things worked out.)
The real test is if that "star" can appear in a crap film that doesn't have instant name recognition on its own, and the star can still bring people in to see it on his or her name alone.
Meryl Streep has done it many times, so has Julia Roberts, Nicole Kidman, Sandra Bullock, etc. Male stars like Bruce Willis, Denzel Washington, Arnold Schartzenegger, George Clooney, etc., can do it, too.
I'm not saying they haven't had flops, but they can take an obscure property and generate box office revenue on their name alone, outside of a recognizable franchise. That's why they get paid what they do.
There are actors right now who have "starred" in blockbusters that I wouldn't call movie stars just yet. But they're on their way. They need more movies under their belts that don't have a Marvel Comics hero or a "star character" attached to it already. Time will tell.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Jane2 2013-01-01 16:33:36
"Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots who don't."
oh dear. You do know who sounds like the idiot here, don't you?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 16:38:03
Not really. Going to a film for the material/story is not so weird my friend.
Going to a film for a "name" and not care at all if the person fits the part is quite idiotic to me.
But feel free to disagree.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Jane2 2013-01-01 16:38:23
I definitely will go to a film on occasion, just because I like a specific actor in it. Makes all the sense in the world. I like someone's work, I want to see it.
And in case you don't get this, Dave, it's like I might go to an art gallery to see an exhibit by an artist whose work I appreciate.
Or maybe you've listened to a specific piece of music because you like that artist. If you ever did, you must have slipped into idiot mode that day.
SHEESH
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 16:41:36
Great analogy, Jane.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 16:45:53
Best12bars:
"Producers and studios don't make movies to lose money just so they can get the perfect person for a part.
I think a lot of this passion comes from youth, and primarily from an academic/school environment where you are taught if you score the highest score and jump the highest jump and perform the best on your "test" you will be rewarded."
I think we all agree that Samantha Barks is a better person for the role than Taylor Swift. Did they lose money on that choice?
If so, how?
I think it's naive to think in short terms and I think a film will only stand the test of time with right choices like this.
I think this whole "desperately casting stars because we are insecure that the film will be successful without it" thing is quite naive, and the "reward issue" you describe is the problem the producers have nowadays.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 16:50:08
Jane, this is about casting a ROLE.
Being a fan of one person and liking everything he does has nothing to do with casting and being suitable for a part. I'm glad you like that person, but if it doesn't work in the role, it doesn't work in the role.
You may care more for the person than the story, most people don't. Or do. Depends on how you see it.
As much as I like a performer, it is possible that I don't like that performer in a certain role at all. Unless you can't see past that.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2013-01-01 16:54:10
But YOUR own argument earlier claims that they are losing money BECAUSE of Crowe.
How does one TRULY know that a person is going to be right in the role until they actually perform? AGAIN: on paper, it seemed as if Crowe COULD have been a wonderful Javert. (And, btw, there are many people that didn't dislike his performance at all.)
All things artistic are subjective. And how do you know an actor (known or unknown) will be good or not in a role until you see it?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Jane2 2013-01-01 16:56:59
Dave, I give up. You just don't get it.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 16:58:25
I think we all agree that Samantha Barks is a better person for the role than Taylor Swift. Did they lose money on that choice?
How would anyone ever know? We'll never get to see this movie with Taylor Swift and compare box office receipts, so your question is unanswerable and you've made no point.
Good luck in the real world, Dave19. You're setting yourself up for major disappointments every step of the way, whenever the "best person" doesn't get a just reward.
But hey, chase those windmills if you want to! You're certainly entitled to do it.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Marianne2 2013-01-01 17:00:23
^ I agree there. Some of the stars best12bars also mentioned get used a lot because they are versatile, meaning they don't play a certain type in everything they do. If the casting is right, people will praise it. If it's wrong, they won't. These kinds of things are also very subjective. I haven't seen the movie yet, but when I do, I could say I like anyone or dislike anyone. It doesn't matter who it is.
And I don't see any harm in being interested in projects that a celebrity you like does. Heck, I watched something meant for children recently because Sara Ramirez had a voice in it. Is it my favorite thing she has done? No, but it was another experience and made me happy that she got that job.
Edit because I was agreeing with dramamama11, but others replied before I got a chance to get my response in.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 17:00:36
"But YOUR own argument earlier claims that they are losing money BECAUSE of Crowe."
But YOUR own argument earlier claims that they are losing money BECAUSE of Samantha Barks. Because your theory says that it would have been better if Taylor Swift got cast.
I think that people will enoy Barks performances for generations on generations and that it will not happen with Crowe's performance. Star or not.
And dramamama611, can you stop with this "good Javert on paper" nonsense?
You can perfectly tell if an actor is able to act through excellent singing at an audition. If one can't he shouldn't be in this business. It's not like his incompetence to act through song comes as a surprise.
There are better people out there, who do master the craft of acting through song. Take them for the part.
We can all speculate but I think it's safe to say that everybody would enjoy a better performance more. And everyone can think of the consequenses that has for the film. It will only be more positive for the viewer's experience.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2013-01-01 17:15:59
I NEVER said that the film would have made more money had Swift been cast. Not once.
And I've seen GADS of people that audition better then their performance ever yields. Not that people like Crowe audition for anyone. But lets pretend that he did: who's to say he didn't kick ass with whatever he auditioned with.
Casting errors do happen, it has little to do with the fact he is a "name". It happens on b'way with "nobodies", it happens in local theatre and it happens in movies.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 17:24:42
I think the whole point is;
Why do many people/audiences care more for famous names than quality? (One does not have to exclude the other but often it does).
The fact that the producers cast the names is only a result of that. We need to look at the cause.
It's because most people don't know real quality and swallow everything and like to see a person they know, or things they know in general. The majority of people acts like cattle and has tunnel vision. That's all fine, but why is that.
Why do they not know real quality? Why do most people not even realize how much better a Javert could have been? Because we can't blame them for not knowing what has never been shown to them in film. Because a lot of the musicalsfilms were cast like this. They don't know better. So then it becomes the battle between the people who DID pay attention to the source material, the music, the story, the craft, etc, who are often very disappointed, and the people who don't know any better. It's very complicated, but as long as this does not change, filmmakers will feel the urge of staying in this pattern, it's a downward spiral.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Marianne2 2013-01-01 17:29:35
Oh, please. If anyone disliked someone in a role and thought about that 24/7 how better it could have been, we would never enjoy anything. People can surprise in good and bad ways.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 17:33:08
A downward spiral that's always been, Dave19. Always.
You've also decided that people want to see "a star," any star. They go because it's a star they like, that they are familiar with.
That's really what fame is. Familiarity.
People like familiar things that they already know they like. That's what a "movie star" is.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 17:34:50
"Not realizing how bad something is, makes you enjoy it more" yes, definitely, but my point is, how is it possible that so many people don't even realize it, while with just a little bit of interest, you would notice the difference in quality between him and other actors/singers.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 17:38:07
Best12bars, I think you are right and I think that's very disappointing.
I wish people would have this familiarity with quality, but I'm afraid it's not going to happen as they are never exposed to it.....
Only a handful of people will find out how great the role of Javert could have been and experience the impact that the role can have.(by searching and listening to others, etc). The rest of the people will never know, and never evolve and never learn, and never experience the impact of what could have been, and has been done by many.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2013-01-01 17:40:30
Because not everyone sees this as an art form. They just want to be entertained -- and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not an all consuming passion for most people. They LIKE movies, just like they LIKE reality shows. It passes the time -- which is all entertainment needs to be.
For those of us that see it AS an art form, PHILOSOPHICALLY we don't actually disagree with you -- but reality isn't going away.
They made a darn good movie...of course it wasn't perfect, but it was damn good and I'm glad to have enjoyed it.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 17:50:04
I agree with dramarama.
It isn't a contest, it's a movie.
The average person doesn't sit there and "compare" and "tally" and "agonize alternatives" while they're watching a story. They just decide if it's working for them on its own terms without a rate card and a list of other people who might have played the part if they'd only had the chance.
And for most people, Russell Crowe is fine. Great? Maybe not, but he's fine, and not sinking this hit movie. He may even be the reason or at least one of the main reasons they decided to take a chance on a period piece musical where everyone dies.
With "Joe Perfect Singer" in the part, they might have decided to see The Hobbit again instead.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 17:50:49
Dramamama, that's true.
So I think the reason filmmakers are getting away with castings like this, is because most people just don't care, and find everything "alright".
If that's what they want. Good for them.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by yankeefan7 2013-01-01 17:51:52
Dave19 - I think that there are plenty of people out there going to the movie that have seen "Les Miserables" on Broadway or regional theater that have seen a lot better Javert than Crowe.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2013-01-01 17:55:08
And you have to remmember: that every blockbuster of a movie (good, bad or indifferent) gives the studios money to make a more 'artistic' film or two -- and not worry about whether or not it makes money.
Making a blockbuster, also gives the director more freedom "next time" to take more creative chances.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2013-01-01 17:55:37
Is this the first movie Dave19 has ever seen?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 17:56:31
LOL
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by ashley77 2013-01-01 18:02:00
You could make the same argument for casting big name Broadway stars in shows. People might be more likely to go see a show if, say, Bernadette Peters is in it, or Audra McDonald or whoever.
Sometimes the casting on paper is perfect and doesn't necessarily work (i.e. Katie Finneran in Annie). Like it was said above, Russell Crowe looked great on paper, plus he had the bonus of familiarity and a background of Oscar-winning acting.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 18:11:22
"Is this the first movie Dave19 has ever seen?"
Is this the first post you read? This is about the tradition of these castings in musicalfilms and the consequences for the public opinion.
Please come back if you have an opinion too ok? :)
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-01 18:18:51
"Crowe looked great on paper, plus he had the bonus of familiarity and a background of Oscar-winning acting."
Yes, and that happens to have nothing to do with singing in a musicalfilm/acting through song. Completely different craft.
Acting can only help you out to a certain level.
People need to realize how much different the craft of performing in a musical film is. Is has nothing to do with normal acting.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Jane2 2013-01-01 18:36:32
"while with just a little bit of interest, you would notice the difference in quality between him and other actors/singers."
Where is it written that the quality is poor with him? THAT IS YOUR OPINION. You base everything on what YOU think is right. FYI, I watched the film in a screening room with an audience made up of actors, singers, directors, and members of the academy in other positions in film making. They liked Crowe's performance. I was the only one in the room who didn't.
YOUR opinion is just that. I don't know you other other than these posts, but for me, they reek of unjustified arrogance.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by GavestonPS 2013-01-01 18:44:08
Dave, you keep discussing "quality" as if it had a chemical formula that is objectively verifiable. Yet, as dramamama points out, a lot of this is subjective.
In my family we watched the 25th Anniversary production the night before we saw the film. My husband (who used to be a casting director on and off-Broadway, FWIW) liked Russell Crowe better than Norm Lewis.
I don't agree, but that doesn't make me a genius and my husband an idiot. I just like opera and operatic voices more than he does.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2013-01-01 18:44:56
This is also not specific to musical films.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Jane2 2013-01-01 18:46:21
All art is subjective.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by dramamama611 2013-01-01 18:49:40
I'd rather see a phenomenal actor with an average voice, then a phenomenal singer with average acting.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by GavestonPS 2013-01-01 18:57:33
This is also not specific to musical films.
No, it isn't. But Dave is right to the extent that "musical acting" is a specific skill set. There are great actors who don't do it well.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by best12bars 2013-01-01 19:00:13
While I think Norm Lewis is a better singer than Russell Crowe, I don't prefer operatic voices for Les Miz in general. It makes me cringe, actually, and tune out on the whole story. It's way too "proper" and doesn't work for me at all for the music.
By the same token, I think a non-operatic Christine Daae in Phantom of the Opera is also a terrible idea (see the movie). That didn't work for me at all.
It's all subjective.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Marianne2 2013-01-01 19:06:16
I agree that Emmy Rossum in Phantom was bad. Besides that role, I sort of have no idea who she is either. I also didn't care for Pierce Brosnan at all in Mamma Mia! His singing was horrendous, but I also didn't find his character too interesting. I'm sure there are others out there who don't think that way.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-02 09:42:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS75wjS_Y88&list=UUggO99g88eUDPcqkTShOPvw&index=1
A refreshing review from someone who didn't know the material at all, and only knew "Wolverine" and "The Gladiator".
This is what he had to say.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by James885 2013-01-02 11:06:00
I'd rather see a phenomenal actor with an average voice, then a phenomenal singer with average acting.
I believe it was Sondheim who stated in an interview when the Sweeney Todd film came out that he prefers 'actors who sing' in a movie musical over singers trying to act.
I had no problem with Crowe's voice. Would I want to see him as Javert in the stage show? Not at all.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Phillytheatreguy10 2013-01-02 11:37:40
After seeing the movie, my feeling is this. This was all about the acting. Furthermore, the fact they sang live didn't help matters. Try to listen to the soundtrack without Hathaway's acting to watch and it is definitely sub-par, when u add the close ups, I was blown away! Hugh Jackman did a fine job, Barks, I fell was directed to underplay "On My Own" which in live performances she performed differently, Seyfried, for me, Cosette's part has always been, for lack of a better word, annoying and the way it's written musically does nothing for me, so she didn't bother me too much, but her voice is very thin- I would love to know if she is the one really singing that high note, Crowe, God help him, he was miscast, which wasn't his fault, however I do fault him for not doing anything with the material, instead of just saying, ok, my voice isn't the greatest, but I can act the hell out of this, for me he fell flat, the kids were fine, Tveit was just there, the Thenadairs, Helena Bonaham Carter needs to stay away from musicals, she lacked the power vocally and had poor diction, acting was fine, Sashca Baron Cohen was ok, not really in the world of the play, for me Redmayne's Marius was the standout surprise performance. I'm ok with the big names so long as they don't take me out of the movie, which Crowe did everytime he sang. I realize it's abput selling tickets and I'm all for exposing anyone to theatre in hopes they'll go out and explore other things about the show- in this case a broadway/london cast recording. I wish the producers had trusted the material and the fact that "it's the number one musical in the world", but thats not always a gurantee and was seen with Phantom, but I don't remember as much advertising for Phantom either, that's another issue entirely, I realize, but Les Mis was everywhere, Producers- you gotta give a little to get a little. I thought this particular director was also a little out of his element and it was a good thing he had the actors he did, because many of those close-ups, of which there are too many, could've fallen falt and been boring otherwise. I was moved overall, and I think in recent years there have been some surprises from big screen stars in musicals.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Dave19 2013-01-02 12:03:39
"I'm ok with the big names so long as they don't take me out of the movie, which Crowe did everytime he sang"
It really is a shame he does that to so many people....
Even to the people that went to Les Mis because of the Gladiator.
And yes, there are reactions like: "It wasn't too bad" or "I just didn't bother much", but is that what the fimmakers want? Really?
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by Phillytheatreguy10 2013-01-02 12:27:09
I really would like to give movie execs the benefit of the doubt, and say I hope they aren't trying to turn out a sub-par product and wouldn't hesitate to make a change where a change is needed. I am not nieve enough to say that I'm sure this may not often be the case, but where something as known as this material is I would hope that at least, Cameron Mackintosh, noted as a producer, would've gone to bat for something as close to his heart as this must be.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by goldenboy 2013-01-02 12:48:08
You can't get financing for a big movie unless a star is attached.
The first thing a studio or finacier asks is "Who is attached.?"
Hairspray wouldn't have been made if John Travlolta weren't attached. (as bad as he was) However if you already have Russel Crowe and Hugh Jackman and Anne Hathaway attached, wouldn't they have been better off getting some truly funny people in the Master of the House roles But I'm sure attaching Sacha Baron Cohen and killer of all musical fare Helena Bonham Carter attached didn't hurt.
Casting big names in musical films
Posted by darquegk 2013-01-02 13:07:22
I would have liked Rowan Atkinson and Catherine Tate as the Thenardiers..
