Printer Friendly - Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-11-29 18:50:29
*- I really don't want to sound racist, but that's the only term I could think of. If anyone happens to know a PC term for it, I'll change it.
I ask because someone was complaining about my schools choice to do West Side Story even though we have very few people of Latin American heritage. Is it really THAT bad?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by qolbinau 2012-11-29 18:54:34
I don't think it should be but it probably is considering the history of blackface etc.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by loliveve 2012-11-29 19:01:28
I don't think it's racist at all. Actual racism requires a negative intent. (If it makes any difference, I'm mixed and not offended. Blackface doesn't offend me either.)
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by anmiller07 2012-11-29 19:02:17
http://broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.php?thread=1041536
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-11-29 19:12:02
In your situation, I wouldn't say so- unless the Sharks are wearing exaggerated makeup and doing awful accents. I would question why a school would do a show they don't have the correct casting pool for, but that's hardly a unique problem.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Jay Lerner-Z 2012-11-29 19:14:20
I'm sure Quiche has addled my brain so much that I don't recognize real posters anymore...but...you're Quiche, right? Right? Am I right?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-11-29 19:25:35
WSS has a large background of not using race correct casting (Natalie Wood?), though I suppose that in itself is not an excuse. But I think, unless it comes off as particularly offensive (which for various reasons, in the case of WSS it doesn't for me), schools in particular should be let off the hook in this case (where I think it's more about the learning experience than getting casting exactly right). But, as Kad said, if they did something like added "ethnic" makeup and bad accents, I would question that...
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-11-29 19:27:46
NO! I'm actually offended you would think that. I've been posting here long before those shenanigans started.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Jay Lerner-Z 2012-11-29 19:29:18
Like I said, my brain has been addled. Too much Quiche, forgive me. I'm going to go lie down now.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Dollypop 2012-11-29 19:34:33
At the Metropolitan Opera it isn't considered racist at all. White tenors have been donning blackface to sing the role of Otello for many, many years.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 19:38:44
I think you run into troubles when you have white people portraying any race other than their own, although I think generally its considered most egregious when a white person portrays a black person. Are there white Hispanics? Yes. Are there white Hispanic Puerto Ricans? Probably? Would there be a whole gang of them? Probably not. I think Kad's probably hit the closest to the issue - it's not that it's a huge deal, but if you don't have the kind of actors required to do a show, perhaps you should be doing something else.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-11-29 19:43:39
According to the director, we had trouble getting rights to the first two shows that we were planning on doing, and this was their back up.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 19:44:01
And just because the Met still uses blackface doesn't mean it's right to do so, even if Dollypop can't see why it should be an issue.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-11-29 19:46:52
As far as I know, my school would NEVER do black face. And if they DID I would be complaining, even though I'm a white redhead.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-11-29 20:05:03
Are you cast? Are there many redhead Peurto Ricans or Italians? :P
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-11-29 20:07:08
Oh no, auditions aren't until the 11th! But I am auditioning.
Are the Jets Italian or Polish?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by tazber 2012-11-29 20:13:01
Oh dear lord, here we go again.......
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by AwesomeDanny 2012-11-29 20:18:17
This very question caused quite a bit of controversy this summer when they announced the cast of The Nightingale at La Jolla. It's a story about feudal China, but very few of the actors were actually Asain. This blog post really sparked the controversy:
http://fairyprincessdiaries.com/2012/07/07/moises-kaufman-can-kiss-my-ass-heres-why/
In the professional world, a Hispanic person might need to be cast in West Side Story because he couldn't be cast in Ragtime or something like that, for reasons that do make sense. There really isn't a lack of roles for white actors.
However, that changes completely in a high school production, when white people are cast in non-white roles only because there aren't enough non-whites.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 20:32:52
But, like others have said, if you don't have a enough non-whites, should you be doing a show that hinges around the fact that some of the characters are not white?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-11-29 20:35:47
Unless it's Hairspray, of course.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 20:38:03
"Then it's racist NOT to let them do an all white cast!" - Marc Shaiman
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-11-29 20:39:52
Mr. Shaiman is a keen opponent of racism, for obviou$ rea$on$.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-29 21:27:05
But, Phyllis, you yourself already pointed out that Hispanics can be of any race. An all-Anglo WSS is not the same as an all-white SHOW BOAT or FLOWER DRUM SONG.
I fully appreciate and share the sensitivity in the U.S. toward the use of blackface. Frankly, it makes me cringe even in old movie musicals that were made in earlier, pre-PC times.
And I agree that Asian-Americans have a point that they are automatically excluded from so many "Caucasian" roles, that it's a shame not to use them for Asian roles.
But if we carry perfect physical and ethnic representation far enough, it will be impossible to do anything but one-actor biographical shows. And haven't we all seen enough of those?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-11-29 21:30:40
Well, until actors of color stop getting shafted, that isn't possible.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-29 21:38:28
Are you responding to me, Kad? Because it was not my argument that the issue of fair representation should be dropped or ignored. On the contrary, I very much think it's a director's obligation to consider it.
(I only said we won't achieve perfect actor/role correlation unless we do one-woman biographies. My point wasn't to ignore the issue altogether.)
I've already written why I think WSS is a different issue than SHOW BOAT. Latinos can, in fact, be all white. So saying white kids can't play Sharks is like saying American kids can't play Eliza Doolittle and Henry Higgins.
That's very different from having a kid put on blackface and go out to sing "Ol' Man River".
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Dollypop 2012-11-29 21:47:20
>>>"And just because the Met still uses blackface doesn't mean it's right to do so, even if Dollypop can't see why it should be an issue."<<<
When a black tenor with the vocal and dramatic chops to sing the role emerges, then we'll talk, Phyllis. There may be such a singer around but I'm not aware of him. No black organizations have concerned themselves with the matter.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 21:49:37
But, Phyllis, you yourself already pointed out that Hispanics can be of any race. An all-Anglo WSS is not the same as an all-white SHOW BOAT or FLOWER DRUM SONG.
Right. And just before that I pointed out that whites playing Hispanics isn't considered as egregious as white playing blacks. I'm not even sure why you directed your comment to me because I've said basically the same things Kad has said.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 22:03:16
No black organizations have concerned themselves with the matter.
It's still blackface. Maybe the Met will eventually take its cue from London's royal opera, which eschewed blackface in 2005.
I mean, in opera, ancient women play teenagers and everyone just accepts it. Why can't they just accept Othello is supposed to be black without blackening his skin?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-29 22:08:31
Phyllis, I wasn't picking a fight with you. I was responding to this post of yours:
But, like others have said, if you don't have a enough non-whites, should you be doing a show that hinges around the fact that some of the characters are not white?
...and reminding you that you yourself have already pointed out that "Hispanic" isn't a biological race, it's an ethnic heritage.
By your own argument ALL the characters in WSS might be Caucasian. Unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible. (I have spent some time in PR; I wasn't keeping score but almost everyone I met appeared to be white.)
I certainly agree with Kad that exaggerated caricatures of Latinos would be offensive, but we could say that about a lot of ethnicities.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-29 22:14:51
I mean, in opera, ancient women play teenagers and everyone just accepts it. Why can't they just accept Othello is supposed to be black without blackening his skin?
Did Leontyne Price play her famous Madama Butterfly in "yellow face"? I've only seen pictures, but I don't believe she did.
ETA: okay, I googled her in the role and in many of the photos she does indeed seem to have lightened her face and neck (while leaving much of the rest of her very dark skin visible).
Opera is weird.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-29 22:35:47
Actually, never mind.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Borstalboy 2012-11-29 22:44:36
NEVER!
ALWAYS!!!
RACIST!!!!
HOMOPHOBE!!!
SELF-HATING JEW!!!
...annnd dramatically collapse to floor.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 03:51:16
Actually, never mind.
Phyllis, I apologize for addressing you as one adult to another. It really isn't my nature to carry a grudge, so I have trouble keeping track of these board quarrels that seem to go on for years at a time here at BWW.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by My Oh My 2012-11-30 05:54:08
Of course it isn't "racist." I can't believe I have to do this, but I'll spell it out for you, OP.
A racist thinks of people of certain races inherently inferior to them, both physically and intellectually. They consider these folks to be "lower animals," as opposed to their own race, which they believe has evolved in meaningful ways that promotes progress in all areas of a society.
Why on earth would you categorize something like this, which has an obvious motive and rationale behind it (to enable the presentation of a show by improvising due to the lack of resources available) that isn't rooted in malice and can't possibly be said to give an edge to only some performers and shun others, as "racist"? It's not even mindless or insensitive. It's not even keeping actors desperate for work unemployed, when they are just as qualified and also bear the characteristics the roles call for. Makes no sense, lol.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-11-30 06:49:25
I'm only catergorizing it as my friend put it. I never thought it was considered racist until last night. Thank you My Oh My, that makes a lot of sense to me.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Jon 2012-11-30 06:59:21
Most of the Sharks in the original Broadway cast AND the movie were not Hispanic.
Maria in the recent revival, while a native of some South American country, was actually of European, non-Hispanic descent.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-11-30 09:59:07
Not only should one only cast actors who are of the precise same gender and ethnicity as the character as written by the playwright, the actor must also have the character's name.
So you can't just cast any Latina as Anita; you must find an actress who was born and raised specifically in Puerto Rico and whose name is Anita.
Otherwise, it's an insult to Puerto Rican actresses named Anita.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by AC126748 2012-11-30 10:02:21
Did Leontyne Price play her famous Madama Butterfly in "yellow face"? I've only seen pictures, but I don't believe she did.
ETA: okay, I googled her in the role and in many of the photos she does indeed seem to have lightened her face and neck (while leaving much of the rest of her very dark skin visible).
As this thread appears to pertain to current attitudes towards race in the theatre (and opera et al), I don't really see this as a valid example. Perhaps Price was given yellow face make-up forty years ago to play Cio-Cio-San, and the original Maria in West Side Story was an Italian white girl from Chicago...the same thing would most likely not happen today. Attitudes change over time. The point Phyllis is making is that many opera houses (including the ROH) are eschewing blackface makeup when white singers perform roles like Otello or Aida. The Met should consider doing the same, if for no other reason than the bronzer and "ethnic" wig they put on their white Aidas looks more Teresa Giudice than Nubian princess.
I've seen several black sopranos portray Amelia in Un Ballo in Maschera, and I didn't need them in whiteface to convince me that they were an 18th-century Queen of Sweden. Opera is all about suspension of disbelief, and that should extend to this issue.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-11-30 10:19:27
It's an interesting argument that morally "right" and "wrong" are not fixed.
Were Olivier and Anthony Hopkins evil when they applied dark make-up and played Othello? Was David Wayne evil when he played Sakini (and won a Tony for Best Actor) in Teahouse of the August Moon?
But I imagine that people would be marching and screaming if Daniel Day-Lewis (an actor noted for transforming from role to role, a highly-respected ability) tried either today.
There's a huge difference between performing a character of another race (or gender, or religion, or whatever) seriously, or as caricature. It seems that most people today are unable to recognize that difference. Being outraged is so much more fun than thinking.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by AC126748 2012-11-30 10:29:29
^ I don't think the word "evil" has been used in this thread. I think the questions and responses have been more geared towards looking at how attitudes have changed towards this issue throughout the years. I'm not personally offended that The Met lathers bronzer on a white soprano when she sings Aida; rather, I find it ridiculously unnecessary. I don't think anyone is outraged that Michael Cerveris is playing Juan Peron because he's not Hispanic. (There were people on this board who brought up the fact that Elena Roger is an Argentinian of European descent, which I thought was an arbitrary distinction to make) I do think it's interesting and important to consider the casting choices of a role in which race is a mitigating factor.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Patash 2012-11-30 10:34:37
I honestly think that skin color should be no more important than hair color. No one gets upset if a brunette gets cast as Marilyn Monroe and then dies her hair blonde or wears a wig to play the role. It's called acting -- and theatre. I pray for the day when people will get no more upset when an actor uses make up (really like donning a wig) to portray someone different from himself. I honestly the think the problem is with the people who want to make it a big issue -- when it shouldn't be an issue at all. But I'm well aware that many people totally disagree with that point of view.
By the way, I was reminded of a recent local story, when a second or third grader was supposed to pose and speak as a famous person, and a white boy chose Martin Luther King. Although no harm was meant and none of the kids were the least bit offended (yes there was a mix of black and white kids), when some parents got hold of the story -- all hell erupted. Too bad we can't all be as non-caring or as naive as those kids! Why should choosing a person of a different skin color and even adding make up to portray him be any different than a seven year old portraying a 60 year old and putting white in his hair to portray him?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by AEA AGMA SM 2012-11-30 10:35:33
"Did Leontyne Price play her famous Madama Butterfly in "yellow face"? I've only seen pictures, but I don't believe she did.
ETA: okay, I googled her in the role and in many of the photos she does indeed seem to have lightened her face and neck (while leaving much of the rest of her very dark skin visible).
Opera is weird."
Depending on which act of Butterfly the photos are from it may not be "yellow face." If her face appears lighter than the rest of her skin it may just be that she was doing an approximation of the full on geisha make up with the very white foundation.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by givesmevoice 2012-11-30 10:39:20
Dollypop, you said that no Black tenor with the vocal and dramatic chops has come along and can play Othello. But opera singers don't just materialize fully formed on the stage of the Met, and your comment points to the fact that Black men might not be going through lessons and schools necessary to become opera singers, and maybe it's not even presented as a career option to the young men and boys who might have the talent and potential to have a career.
It's not racism on an individual level, because I seriously doubt most of us are sitting here saying "oh well Black men can't be operatic tenors," but on an institutional level, there's some form of racism or discrimination that's preventing the Black tenor perfectly well-suited to playing Othello from rising to prominence.
So, I think that the issue (offensive stereotypes aside) is not that a white person is playing a role of color, but that an actor of color is not, and might not be because there apparently isn't one of the caliber necessary, which then reaches back to access to arts and encouragement for lessons as children.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by dreaming 2012-11-30 11:27:00
givesmevoice-There are a number of factors that go into explaining why there is a dearth of black tenors for roles like Othello. One is cultural-I go to the opera all the time and am amazed at the lack of diversity in the audience (even in the cheap seats and standing areas). Also, the training involved to become an operatic star of the caliber necessary to perform at that level (i.e., the Met), is expensive and not available to all-nor do many choose to partake in it. However, I think it shouldn't mean that the opera never gets performed (and clearly someone agrees with me as it is in the schedule for this season). I think it just needs to be sensitively done (and appears to have been so when I saw it in October). I'm not saying it's appropriate in all circumstances, but in opera in particular, the person's voice has to be right for the role.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by darion 2012-11-30 11:31:55
No, its not, just like its not racist to have an all black cast of Streetcar Named Desire. Paralysis by Political Correctness.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by PalJoey 2012-11-30 11:33:20
The opera world has historically embraced black female singers, but it has been harder for African-American tenors and baritones.
Noah Stewart, an emerging talented singer--stunningly beautiful and openly gay-- has said this about playing the lead in Versi's Otello:
What opera role would you most like to perform?
Id love to sing the lead in Verdis Otello in the future. I think hes a fascinating character and I always loved Shakespeares original play. But I have a number of years ahead of me to sing more lyric roles, which are more appropriate for my voice.
Here is he is in a Michigan Opera Theatre production of The Pearl Fishers:
And here is a video of him in Puccini's Il Tabarro, with soprano Jessica Klein:
http://youtu.be/dq5t66FGB08
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by SonofRobbieJ 2012-11-30 11:36:29
^ Oh...my.
He's heavenly.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Geoff2 2012-11-30 11:44:20
As a black performer, I would say not a problem at all as long as everything is treated truthfully and respectfully to the culture AND the material. Any caricature portrayal would be troublesome. Obviously I don't think it makes sense for dominantly white organizations to produce shows where race is a major theme or to cast white performers in roles where race is central to the character (i.e., Raisin in the Sun, Ragtime, etc.). Same goes with dominantly black organizations.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by doodlenyc 2012-11-30 12:03:03
Didn't this get settled on Designing Women?!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by darion 2012-11-30 13:10:28
asking this is pretty much saying youre obsessed with color
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by PalJoey 2012-11-30 13:25:55
Color-blind opera casting: Noah Stewart as Pinkerton with French soprano Anne Sophie Duprels as Cio-Cio-San in the Opera North production of Madama Butterfly:
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by PalJoey 2012-11-30 13:31:14
And for Robbie--Noah Stewart showin' a little cleavage and some LEGS:
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by givesmevoice 2012-11-30 13:45:28
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by aaronb 2012-11-30 14:12:25
I played the Scarecrow in an all-white version of THE WIZ in high school. I thought that was pretty offensive.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by aaronb 2012-11-30 14:14:32
Also My Oh My--race and racism is far more complex than thinking people of other races are inferior to you.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-30 14:56:27
That's silly. The Wiz isn't about race.
Most of the Sharks in the original Broadway cast AND the movie were not Hispanic.
Well, then, there's no reason to ever cast Latino people in Latino parts. Case closed!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-11-30 14:59:42
Considering when the movie was made, we're frankly lucky we even got Rita Moreno.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-30 15:01:11
Exactly! So maybe you can just enjoy that fact and stop with the PC whining!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-30 15:10:06
Also, My Oh My's views on racism are pretty much nonsense.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by givesmevoice 2012-11-30 15:18:04
asking this is pretty much saying youre obsessed with color
And saying that you don't see color or races usually means you're white and never had to be concerned with how your color affected your daily life.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by LizzieCurry 2012-11-30 15:19:00
http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-11-30 15:19:08
Yeah, the era that the movie was made (look a few years earlier to The King and I) don't prove the point. I still think it's more or less fine for a mainly white school to do West Side Story--but for a variety of reasons I think it's different when it is a school. (And yet, I wouldn't want to see a school do an all white Ragtime, or Showboat, so I know my thinking is kinda hypocritical.)
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by givesmevoice 2012-11-30 15:23:51
Lizzie, I would like your post if I could.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-30 15:25:04
asking this is pretty much saying youre obsessed with color
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by DEClarke 2012-11-30 15:48:02
I guess it depends on intent?
When I was a kid my local community theatre did Arthur Miller's THE CRUCIBLE. They held auditions for four days and only anglos auditioned. They had already paid for the rights, so they had to produce anyway. Tastefully, in a way that the audience couldn't tell, they used make-up to make the actress playing Tituba look like she had dark skin.It was a great shock to everyone when they saw her out of make-up.
In that case, no offense of malignant feelings were intended. The company just did the best they could with what they had to pick from. It played well, and no one was upset.
So, I guess it all comes down to intentions...
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by LizzieCurry 2012-11-30 16:03:43
No. It doesn't.
Holy crap.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Patash 2012-11-30 16:16:18
Lizzie Curry, how would you suggest that school handle the casting of The Crucible? And please don't be so naive as to simply say "just cast a black person in the role".
If there is no one fat who auditions to play a fat role, they pad him. If no old man auditions for an old man play, they make him up for the role. If there is no one who is blind to play Helen in The Miracle Worker, they "pretend". It's kind of sad that people make skin color a bigger issue than any other physical difference.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by givesmevoice 2012-11-30 16:21:14
Did you really just use the word anglos? Maybe that's just my personal distaste showing, but...
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-11-30 16:39:12
Wait, so people who could not speak English auditioned for The Crucible? (Or at any rate, they were expecting non English speakers to audition?) I am so confused.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-30 16:41:27
It's kind of sad that people make skin color a bigger issue than any other physical difference.
You know who started that? White people!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by LizzieCurry 2012-11-30 16:47:00
I knew there was a reason I'd stayed away from this thread for 3 pages.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by darion 2012-11-30 16:47:55
No it doesnt GIVESMEAVOICE, it means Im not obsessed with race, dont see slights where there arent and dont judge a person, good or bad by their race.
tell me, did you have a problem with the black Streetcar Named Desire?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-11-30 16:50:18
Ooh, it's almost time for someone to bring up a white Effie!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Mattbrain 2012-11-30 16:54:10
I heard of a production of Parade where Jim Conley was played by a white person.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 17:33:04
As this thread appears to pertain to current attitudes towards race in the theatre (and opera et al), I don't really see this as a valid example. Perhaps Price was given yellow face make-up forty years ago to play Cio-Cio-San...
I wasn't passing judgment, AC, I was just curious as to the conventions employed.
But I should be clear that in the photos I found, Miss Price may have simply worn lighter make-up on her face. I can't tell whether it was yellow in color; and for all I know, she wore the exact make-up to play Aida. (What I found odd was that she lightened her face and shoulders, but not the rest of her in a costume that displayed quite a bit of flesh. Maybe it wasn't from BUTTERFLY after all!)
IIRC, Leontyne Price paying Butterfly was considered historic. I certainly didn't mean to throw stones at the past.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by PalJoey 2012-11-30 17:38:43
She kinda did it in whiteface:
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 17:39:54
The point Phyllis is making is that many opera houses (including the ROH) are eschewing blackface makeup when white singers perform roles like Otello or Aida. The Met should consider doing the same, if for no other reason than the bronzer and "ethnic" wig they put on their white Aidas looks more Teresa Giudice than Nubian princess.
And I most emphatically agree with Phyllis (which happens a lot more than she seems to realize or wants to acknowledge). I'm sorry if my agreement got lost in the exchange.
And I'll add that few if any of us care what Kiri Te Kanawa sings (or sang in her heyday). I think we were happy to let her play any race or ethnicity she chose.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 17:44:39
There's a huge difference between performing a character of another race (or gender, or religion, or whatever) seriously, or as caricature. It seems that most people today are unable to recognize that difference. Being outraged is so much more fun than thinking.
There is a difference, newintown, but when we get to the professional theater there is also the issue that all actors are struggling to earn a living in a difficult business. Since so many characters (professionals, neighbors, extras, etc.) are unfairly assumed to be white, actors of color start at a greater disadvantage.
No matter how serious the portrayal of an African-American character, casting a white actor still takes away one of the few jobs open to black actors. (Raul Julia once made a credible Othello, but I doubt he would be cast today.)
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 17:48:52
Depending on which act of Butterfly the photos are from it may not be "yellow face." If her face appears lighter than the rest of her skin it may just be that she was doing an approximation of the full on geisha make up with the very white foundation.
Thanks, AEA. It didn't appear to be full-on geisha make-up, but neither was the photo captioned. So at this point I'm not at all sure it was a production shot from BUTTERFLY; it could have come some something else.
ETA Never mind. Pal Joey found a better photo and posted it above. It is indeed an approximation of "geisha" make-up.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-11-30 17:51:29
Well put, Gaveston. I completely agree--and I do think the OP's question plays into the whole thing--I don't think it does create a problem in school (and community) productions, within some reason. BTW Phyllis would prob hate me saying this but I agree with him (her?) more often than not, and I think both of you have a lot of great things to add to this forum, so I wouldn't be so quick to think he doesn't agree with you. (She? I'm so confused.)
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 17:53:21
Joey, thanks so much for the productions shots. I know BUTTERFLY is a warhorse, but I still think it's one of the best librettos (and scores) in the repertoire.
And an African-American Pinkerton is sheer genius! It adds an entirely new level to what is already a rich play.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 17:58:40
(Price) kinda did it in whiteface.
That must be the geisha make-up that AC was talking about. I can't remember all the rules that applied to geishas in different periods, but for a Western audience that wouldn't know the difference, that seems an elegant solution.
I really think the photo I was discussing was mislabeled.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-11-30 18:02:52
BTW Phyllis would prob hate me saying this but I agree with him (her?) more often than not, and I think both of you have a lot of great things to add to this forum, so I wouldn't be so quick to think he doesn't agree with you. (She? I'm so confused.)
I only meant (facetiously) that Phyllis may not like to ADMIT she and I agree as often as we do: which is, frankly, almost all the time.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Patash 2012-12-01 08:42:47
"And an African-American Pinkerton is sheer genius! It adds an entirely new level to what is already a rich play."
So now I am confused. This idea was in an earlier post complete with pictures and was referred to as "color blind casting". I thought color blind casting refers to the idea that race makes absolutely no difference to the story or the casting. Yet, you are saying that casting an African American in the role dramatically changes the entire play. Is that then really "color blind casting"?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Taryn 2012-12-01 09:13:44
1) Racism is not dependent on intent. In a lot of ways, it's equally important to address accidental, unintentional racism that comes from thoughtlessness or mild, internalized racism. This is always the argument that comes up when people make a racist (or sexist, or homophobic, etc.) joke and get mad at people for being offended. "Well I didn't INTEND it to be offensive!" Life doesn't work like that. People are responsible for their words and actions, no matter the initial intent.
2) There is a huge difference between skin color and something like hair color, eye color, etc. Saying that you "don't notice" skin color or don't think it should be considered any more important than any other feature just indicates a general ignorance of why race is a topic that has to be handled with such thoughtfulness. There aren't major histories of prejudice, exclusion, marginalization, etc., based on hair color. In theatre, pretty much ALL THE ROLES EVER are considered "white," even when there's no specific reason they need to be. White people do not have trouble fitting into this industry. This is why we should be protective of roles written for minorities.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by perfectlymarvelous 2012-12-01 09:29:30
If there is no one fat who auditions to play a fat role, they pad him. If no old man auditions for an old man play, they make him up for the role. If there is no one who is blind to play Helen in The Miracle Worker, they "pretend". It's kind of sad that people make skin color a bigger issue than any other physical difference.
Except for the fact that putting someone white in makeup to play a role that was intended for a person of color has very different ramifications and history than putting someone in a fat suit or age makeup. And pretending those things don't exist just makes you willfully ignorant.
Also holy crap, racism is not dependent on intent and I don't care how "tastefully" or convincingly it is done, blackface is still blackface.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 13:11:51
So now I am confused. This idea was in an earlier post complete with pictures and was referred to as "color blind casting". I thought color blind casting refers to the idea that race makes absolutely no difference to the story or the casting. Yet, you are saying that casting an African American in the role dramatically changes the entire play. Is that then really "color blind casting"?
The term "color blind casting" usually refers to the intention of those who make the decision. As a viewer, I'm entitled to see meaning in the choice, whether it was intended or not.
Now maybe those who cast a black Pinkerton wanted to make a statement about internalized imperialist attitudes, but I think it's more likely they just cast the best tenor for the role. I, on the other hand, like the notion that imperialism is a human impulse, not just a Caucasian one.
Does that make sense?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 13:21:43
Racism is not dependent on intent.
But isn't that just an inadequacy of the English language? Surely there's a difference between using a politically incorrect expression out of ignorance and actually believing that people with a certain skin color all have the same abilities and attributes (or lack thereof).
I'm not saying results don't matter. They do, of course. But inexperience is not the same as outright hatred.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-01 14:33:04
I wonder if any of the Americans who care so much about race in theatre casting care if Western characters in theatrical productions in China are cast with Western actors. Or if Asian characters in productions of plays in Ghana are portrayed by Asian actors. I would imagine not - we're so focused on American white racism, we forget (don't much care) that there's the rest of the world.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 14:54:43
I agree. Hypothetical racism in China is what we should REALLY be focusing on!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 15:00:32
I have an African-American friend who is married to an Australian director. He works all the time Down Under. He usually plays drug dealers and other street thugs, but he works.
As for Asian-Americans trying to work in their own country, I'm not sure why the entire world is their problem.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-01 15:15:58
Thank you for helping to prove my point.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-01 15:36:19
Odd. I didn't see a point. I saw an attempt at a snide comment.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-12-01 15:54:20
While I'm not quite sure what "their own country" would mean to most Asian-*Americans* (I wish we could just get to the point where everyone was described as American), I think Gaveston makes a great point. In terms of racial casting I think context (meaning both the play's context, and geographic locations) mean a great deal.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 16:09:10
Good God, I hope it was clear that by Asian-Americans' "own country" I meant the USA, just as I would for African-Americans, European-Americans, etc.!
And, yes, Eric's right: geography matters, as does history. We are having this conversation because the USA has a history of segregation in casting, one in which white people played all ethnicities in various, ridiculous get-ups.
I don't know that China has a history of excluding Caucasians from its national theater. Given the number of years it takes to master Chinese opera, I doubt there were a lot of European applicants.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-12-01 16:19:17
Sorry Gaveston--I completely missed your point (which on re-reading seems clear.)
I think largely, colour blind casting makes sense (and, excepting the history of caucasians playing other races, it seems something that Americans have more issue with than other countries.) When a play or musical specifically deals with race, it becomes a different issue.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 16:38:45
Thank you, Eric. I'd be mortified if readers thought I meant the opposite, so I appreciate the clarification.
Almost ALL "American" culture is appropriated from somewhere, so it stands to reason we'd have some conflict over it. I for one see nothing wrong with these discussions.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by canmark 2012-12-01 16:39:53
> We are having this conversation because the USA has a history of segregation in casting, one in which white people played all ethnicities in various, ridiculous get-ups.
Related to that point, there are two good documentary films that look at Hollywood's portrayals of Chinese people and Native Americans, sometimes played by non-Chinese and non-Native American actors:
Hollywood Chinese: http://www.deepfocusproductions.com/HollywoodChinese/
Reel Injun:
http://www.reelinjunthemovie.com/site/
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Taryn 2012-12-01 17:03:23
But isn't that just an inadequacy of the English language? Surely there's a difference between using a politically incorrect expression out of ignorance and actually believing that people with a certain skin color all have the same abilities and attributes (or lack thereof).
I think it's moreso a lack of appreciation for the vast range of subtleties that racism can include. Everyone can recognize overt, hostile hatred of other races. It's harder to recognize its subtler forms.
And let's be clear: people can make inadvertently racist comments without actually being racists. The difference is whether they can be called out on it and go, oh, I understand, or whether they make excuses for it.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Taryn 2012-12-01 17:04:30
Double post. 
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 17:30:41
I apologize, newintown. I should have realized that you, who always speaks with such insight and sensitivity when this subject comes up, were making a point about how it's more important to point out the hypocrisy of mostly American people who consider racial issues in American theatre without contemplating alleged racism in China and Ghana on a board where we primarily talk about theatre in the western world. And here I thought you were just trying to derail the conversation with nonsense.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-01 18:54:49
"I don't know that China has a history of excluding Caucasians from its national theater."
Exactly. Because you don't care enough to consider the possibility. Which was my point.
" I should have realized that you... [bla bla bla]... were making a point about how it's more important to point out the hypocrisy of mostly American people who consider racial issues in American theatre without contemplating alleged racism in China and Ghana on a board where we primarily talk about theatre in the western world."
You're absolutely right; we should never, under any circumstances whatsoever, open up any discussion more broadly than within the confines of the New York theatre district. That would be confusing.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 19:10:40
Nah, your point was just to derail the discussion. Well done!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-01 19:26:06
Condescending isn't pretty, and you're usually quite pretty, Phyl.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 19:57:07
I'm not condescending, but I am wondering if you think the NAACP should concern itself with how black people are treated in China, because one seems as much to do with the other as your concerns about the minority representation in Chinese theatre does to this thread. You got me, though. I've never once considered what happens when The Great Wall Players decide to Falsettos with no white Jews, just like when I consider most states in this country have amendments banning gay people from getting married I don't think, "Well, at least it's that way in China, too!"
And I never once suggested we were strictly talking about theatre in the New York theatre district solely, hence my use of American and western theatre. Again, if you really think you're making a point perhaps someone can pop in to help you clarify, because I truly can't get the point you claim to be making, except that if you don't have a well thought out line on the Eastern equivalent of what seem to be uniquely western/American issues then you're somehow part of a problem.
But if this really an important issue to you, why not start a thread about it? You can provide the information you have about Chinese people and African Ghanaian playing roles whose races are different from the characters they are playing. You probably already have the information on how the racial demographics in those countries break down, some make sure to provide. Some context of Western theatre in the East would help, too. You'll definitely want to provide some specific information about racism manifests in those countries, as well as some insight into roots of that racism, as they are certain to differ from the the roots in this or other western countries.
I look forward to the discussion.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-01 20:09:26
Don't get hysterical, Phyl. You're not yourself when you're hysterical.
If you don't want to discuss anyone else's thoughts, just say so. A lengthy diatribe (is that redundant?) isn't necessary.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 20:13:14
See, that's not hysteria. That's me taking the time to answer you when you're just trolling and trying to derail. Then when I give you an answer, you try to derail it again by calling me hysterical.
Whose thoughts am I not discussing? Yours? If so, phrase them again so I can see exactly what thoughts of yours I'm not discussing.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 20:32:03
And let's be clear: people can make inadvertently racist comments without actually being racists. The difference is whether they can be called out on it and go, oh, I understand, or whether they make excuses for it.
Well said, Taryn. Thank you and I agree.
I do wish we had a separate term for thoughtless stereotyping as opposed to an actual hostility toward people based on immutable characteristics. Assuming that all African-Americans have great musical ability may be ignorant, but it isn't malicious.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 20:42:11
I'm sorry if I too am missing your point, newintown. The issue of theatrical representation in my own culture is sufficiently complex, I wouldn't dream of attempting to speak for China or Ghana.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-01 20:45:35
You may not intend it, Phyl, but by wildly exaggerating and misrepresenting my post, you don't "discuss" it. You feel that this is, excuse the expression, a black and white issue. You believe that what you value in the specific time and place which you inhabit is a universal moral imperative, ignoring or belittling parts of the issue that don't matter to you, because it doesn't support a black and white point of view.
Asking questions that you don't like isn't trolling. Clearly you don't want to have a discussion. It seems you'd rather pontificate from what you feel is an unassailable moral promontory. I didn't expect that.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 20:46:40
Thank you for the links, Canmark. I look forward to watching them.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 21:12:39
You may not intend it, Phyl, but by wildly exaggerating and misrepresenting my post, you don't "discuss" it.
This from the person who suggested people were saying Olivier was evil when he did blackface 60 years ago and later suggested that we were only talking about New York Theatre district theatre. As you were told, no one said anyone was evil, and since the OP was talking about a college production, I figured it was understood that weren't just talking about theatre in New York.
Clearly you don't want to have a discussion.
And your comment about China and Ghana was meant to add to the discussion? How? You've yet to say a single thing about it.
As pointed out when I was not having a discussion, the roots of racism in China are going to wildly different that the roots and manifestation of racism in the West, so someone's going to have contextualize it to have this discussion, which was ostensibly about doing shows about race in America when you don't have actors of the race you need.
So fine, I snarked my first few comments about you talking about China and Ghana but again, though your point seems to be A) Because we primarily talk about western theatre, your first non sequitur about China and Ghana means no one cares about an issue in Eastern theatre that we've to receive a single shred of actual information about and that B) Because you dared to talk about something other than New York theatre you're being shut down. So to point a, I say that without a single example of this theatrical conundrum in China or Ghana, I'm not sure what to say about it, and with point b, we already established this discussion was never strictly about theatre in New York. You brought China and Ghana up, and have offered zero insight into what you think, expect to imply that there's some onus on the people in this thread to have a concrete opinion about an abstract you've barely touched upon. Is it because you don't care if Caucasian people play minorities in this country?
Asking questions that others don't like is not trolling, you're right. But the statement you made about China and Ghana was, because it very little to do with the thread and you've made no effort since you brought it up to actually discuss it. Also trolling - calling out others for misrepresenting you while you've been misrepresenting others.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Taryn 2012-12-01 22:13:01
I do wish we had a separate term for thoughtless stereotyping as opposed to an actual hostility toward people based on immutable characteristics. Assuming that all African-Americans have great musical ability may be ignorant, but it isn't malicious.
I actually think it's really invaluable that we call it the same thing. On the one hand, people tend to react strongly to the word if you call out something they said as being kind of racist. But on the other hand, the sort of racism of ignorance and thoughtlessness we see in our art and pop culture is also damaging. It damages our cultural awareness because of its very casualness, and it's important to recognize just how damaging it truly is. That's why I think it's important that it's the same word; that way it's not minimized as being unimportant to address.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-01 22:27:43
Taryn, we don't have to pretend ignorance doesn't matter. But using the word "Hispanic" instead of "Latino" or "Chicano" (a sticking point among some Chicanos in the Southwest) is not the same thing as chaining a black man to your bumper and dragging him to death behind your car because of the color of his skin.
I don't see the benefit in pretending these are the same actions or that they arise from the same motivation. What we end up doing is trivializing the idea of "political incorrectness" by grouping it with actual hate crimes.
And we can't even have this conversation if everyone who thinks casting issues are overemphasized is to be lumped in with David Duke.
JMO, obviously.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-01 22:54:21
No one here, from what I have seen, is being nearly that hyperbolic, Gaveston.
Some may argue that racism is not unlike an invasive tree, with a host of branches that lead to leaves and sour fruit. Some racist acts are little, barely noticeable buds or leaves; some are large, substantial fruit. But it's all part of the tree, and the entirety of it is detrimental and should not go tolerated. Leaves, branches, fruit, and all.
I don't think racism can be shackled by intention. It's all part of the same tree. It's all borne of ignorance. Permitting it allows it to grow.
No, making a stereotypical joke isn't the same as a lynching. Obviously. And no one stable would think so.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-01 23:29:50
Well said, Kad and Taryn. Sure, there are degrees of racism and there are levels of intent, but I don't think anyone is served by trying to parse the exact level of racism out of each and every individual act, especially since, like Kad said, no one is suggesting that a racist joke or miscasting a role that should be played by someone of color is tantamount to a hate crime.
I really like the tree analogy a lot, Kad.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by CJ N2N 2012-12-01 23:34:13
I actually feel kind if bad that I started all of this. Sorry guys!
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Taryn 2012-12-02 00:36:56
I think Kad and Phyllis have already eloquently answered on my behalf, but -- yeah, I definitely was not suggesting that these actions are the same. At all. I was saying that it's important to recognize all forms of racism for what they are, from the more "harmless" missteps born of ignorance or thoughtlessness to truly heinous actions, because generally, the latter eventually winds its way from the former. The reason people are eventually able to act out in violent acts of racism is that they were never taught earlier to thoughtfully consider how they speak about other people. Words shape ideas, very much in the vein of the tree metaphor Kad was using. It doesn't mean that everyone who makes an off-color joke is a racist about to commit a hate crime. But it does mean that everything starts somewhere, and that there's real reason to be thoughtful of how we treat subjects even in passing, or else people are trained not to care on a small level, which can in some cases grow to not caring on a big level.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-02 00:55:35
I understand, Gaveston, I think, why you believe there should/could be another term for espousing racist ignorance without malice.But I'd argue that separating it opens the door to accepting it. It'd be "not AS racist". It'd be "passive racism". But racism isn't ever passive, because you are always actively making a decision to act that way.
Taryn is right. Calling it all racism is invaluable. It identifies a behavior pattern with a potent negative- that's why most people act defensively when called out on it is cognitive dissonance; it's the fact they have to deal with "I Are Doing Something Racist" conflicting with "I Am Not a Racist".
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Boredathome 2012-12-02 04:25:43
"When a black tenor with the vocal and dramatic chops to sing the role emerges, then we'll talk"
That is some seriously f-ed up stuff right there, and that's only a sample of the, misguided, arrogrant, ethnocentric, willfully ignorant stuff I've seen in this thread.
To think that there is simply no minority actor/singer/whatever out there to fill the demands of a role rather than to admit that there is a systemic exclusion of minorities which creates this dearth of racially-appropriate performers is to be WILLFULLY ignorant to the issue of racism. One would rather make excuses for it than admit it.
This is, in my humble opinion, disgusting, naive or both.
Grow up. Look around you, stop being so f-ing privileged and try to understand the experience of others.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by newintown 2012-12-02 09:32:40
Phyl, the wealth of typos in your response above (as well as the total misunderstanding of my comments) suggest that you're in a state of clouded zealous rage, and unable/unwilling to engage in a serious discussion. I'm disappointed, I expected better from you.
But I need to be reminded from time to time about the futility of trying to calmly discuss those few things (racism, money, etc.) which can't be calmly discussed. (Noting that a discussion can be an exchange of differing points of view.)
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-02 11:15:41
Are you trying out your After Eight impression or something?
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-02 13:55:04
I see no typos in that post (unless we're considering "theatre" a typo), and I haven't edited any of them since yesterday, but feel free to point them out. Often I'm the worst at proofreading my own stuff. I mean, I do make typos all the time, and when I catch them after the fact I fix them, so I don't really know what the point is, except to again attempt to take this conversation as far away from any substance as possible. (Thanks for not trying to hijack the conversation with piddling nonsense, though!)
Noting that a discussion can be an exchange of differing points of view.
When you bring a point of view to the thread, we'll all be ready to read it, but at this point it's obvious that you're going to just keep coming back at me for being hysterical or making typos or whatever else you come up with next and that's swell, but you realize all your contributions to this thread (such as they are) are there for everyone to see and contrast them with your later comments about not being able to have a discussion, right?
For example, you started back before China with that crack about casting Anita in West Side Story. I truly can't believe the person who typed, "So you can't just cast any Latina as Anita; you must find an actress who was born and raised specifically in Puerto Rico and whose name is Anita" is actually complaining about being thwarted when trying to have a serious and honest discussion. Then there's the "evil" comment and then we all now where you went after that. And then, all you've done since is keep saying you're being misinterpreted and how I'm crazy and hysterical.
Since I'm helpfully recapping this thread for you, let me point out that you completely ignored Kad said he thought your China and Ghana comment was snide and a little later you ignored Gaveston when said he had no idea what those remarks had to do with anything. And yet you still haven't said anything of any value and just continue to try and make this about my alleged moral superiority or whatever.
Feel free to keep trying to paint me however you want to, but the only person you're fooling (because I'm beginning to believe you do actually believe what you're saying) is yourself.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-02 19:40:46
I too like Kad's tree analogy. It is quite eloquent, as a matter of fact.
But having separate words for leaves, twigs, branches, limbs, trunks and roots doesn't keep us from understanding they are all part of a tree.
Certain urban and academic communities are very sensitive to changes in language and the preferences of minority groups when it comes to nomenclature. I'm sorry, but I don't see what we accomplish by lumping all people outside those communities with hatemongers.
To make the example personal: this board once exploded when I used the direct object with a disability ("the autistic"). I just didn't know any better and was happy to be corrected. That is NOT the same impulse as insisting that ramps are a waste of public funds or that some people should be kept out of public view. It simply is not.
(ETA, Kad, if I'm using hyperbolic examples, it's only for clarity. No, I don't think anyone in this thread has exaggerated claims of racism.)
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-02 20:41:13
I actually feel kind of bad that I started all of this. Sorry, guys!
I hope you won't feel bad, CJ N2N. Conversations on this topic are good and, really, the only remedy where the cure isn't worse than the disease.
****
Is it possible that newintown was making this point: that the way we Americans and Canadians immediately conceptualize this issue in terms of North American histories of theatrical representation* is more or less the same way most people approach casting?
In other words, aren't we all just using our own experience to conceptualize the discussion?
Okay, I'll step in it: if you ask me to envision a dentist, I will probably imagine a white male EVEN THOUGH I don't choose dentists in real life on the basis of race or sex. But most of the dentists (real or theatrical) I have seen were white men, so that's what I envision, at least at first thought.
By the same token, we in this thread immediately jumped to the legacy of blackface and minstrelsy and Hollywood when the subjects of race and casting were raised.
I don't know if newintown is for it or against it, but I do see the relationship.
______
* Sorry, but Pal Joey won't let me use the word "mimesis".
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-02 21:00:06
Gaveston, I actually don't think we really disagree. We need to make distinct ignorance v. racism. I don't think not knowing which label a group prefers is racism/bigotry. I think the use of stereotypes and racial slurs is racism/bigotry. I don't think denying a role to a person of color because they were not better than a rival white actor is racism. I think choosing a white actor over an equal colored actor because "it's more commercial" or something is born of racism.
At this point in America, most people know what are slurs and stereotypes. Being ignorant is no longer a aufficient excuse for that. ...I don't know about China.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-02 21:16:03
Absolutely, Kad. I think you, Phyllis, Taryn and I are all discussing this subject from the same side. I hope that is clear to all involved.
And I'm certainly not saying ignorance is "okay": you and Taryn are correct that it is the root from which hate-crime trees grow. I fear sometimes, however, that we may create a world in which we don't get a chance to correct ignorance because everyone is too afraid to speak his or her mind. (This is NOT a reference to anyone in this thread.) But now that I have written the above, I feel foolish: the last two presidential campaigns prove people are all too willing to spew the most obnoxious nonsense.
But as for a hypothetical director who always casts white men to play dentists, I don't think it's helpful to call him a racist (nor would any of us here do so). I think we're better off if somebody is around to say, "Good actor. But wouldn't it be interesting if the dentist were a half-black, half-Korean, wheel-chair-enabled transgendered woman?"
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-02 21:29:54
I think that decision (casting white men as dentists) is could be argued as subtly racist, though. It's born from a belief that "No, black men/etc. can't make good doctors." An antiquated belief that has just been passed down and become part of a mindset. I realize this makes things difficult- even hopelessly so- because racism is in part passed along without being aware of it. That's where my tree metaphor fails me. This getting into the real theory stuff, the stuff that drives queer theory and post colonialism. But then, viewing things through those lenses and theories makes things very, very difficult and leads to no solutions and more problems.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-02 21:56:00
True story, Kad: I was referred to a white, male dentist in Marina Del Rey in the early 1990s and was very pleased with him. But then I showed up for an appointment and discovered the practice had switched me to a partner-dentist who was Chinese-American.
Well, I wasn't entirely happy about having no say in the decision, but of course I couldn't complain. You can see why. And so I saw Dr. Chang for a year and was very happy with him and his work.
And then I showed up (I was having a lot of work done) to discover I had been reassigned to a white, female dentist. Again, I couldn't possibly object. And she was great (women's hands tend to be smaller) until she moved to Iowa.
At which time I was transferred to another white male. And then I switched to a one-dentist office where I wouldn't be passed around like a sack of potatoes. (FTR, the dentist I chose was Asian-American and brilliant. If you ever need a referral, let me know.)
Such are the trials of being a liberal, I suppose, but all the dentists involved were highly qualified. LOL.
***
Back on topic: casting a white man as a dentist MIGHT be born of a belief that women and people of color aren't as qualified to be dentists, but I think it's more likely just a product of what the casting director has seen.
In evolutionary terms, I think we had to be conditioned toward stereotyping in order to survive as a species. Antelope=good to eat! Sabre-tooth tiger=more likely to eat you! Of course, this is not an excuse for laziness today, when we ought to know better than to make assumptions about people based on superficial appearances. But the evolutionary impulse remains.
Of course, the assumption is still based on seeing race first and the individual second, which is why I sometimes wish our language were more specific. "Racist" has become one of the worst words in American English, and rightfully so! But I don't want to trivialize it because my grandmother hasn't learned to say "African-American" rather than "Afro-American" (facetious example).
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-12-02 22:26:46
I think that decision (casting white men as dentists) is could be argued as subtly racist, though. It's born from a belief that "No, black men/etc. can't make good doctors."
For some reason, this comment reminded me of the thread I'm linking below. Sometimes, I truly believe, there are just white people who can't stand seeing people of color in parts that weren't specifically written to be played by people of color.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by Kad 2012-12-02 22:43:26
I'm not sure if it's, like, an active "can't stand it", though. It bugs them and they perhaps can't put to words why.
That thread was before I was really active in this forum. Dear god.
Is a white person playing a role
Posted by GavestonPS 2012-12-03 17:26:14
I have no idea why anyone would object to an African-American woman playing Sheila*, unless it were that Sheila's demeanor seems too much like a caricature of the "strong, black woman" stereotype of TV sitcoms.
In fact, except for Connie and Richie, I don't see why all the casting shouldn't be color-blind.
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*I know, I know: Phyllis graciously gave us an entire thread on the subject, but I'm not sure I really want to know the objections.
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ETA: Okay, against my better judgment I started reading that thread. What does the OP think black children were doing in the 1940s? He apparently thinks they were barred from the cinema and tap dancing, when in fact tap dancing arose out of black culture.
