BWW EXCLUSIVE: Sir Tim Rice on WIZARD OF OZ, Disney, GLEE, FROM HERE TO ETERNITY & More

Today we are talking to one of the most influential musical theatre writers of all time, having written the book and lyrics for JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR, EVITA, CHESS and many more, as well as contributing lyrics to the stage adaptation of Disney's BEAUTY & THE BEAST and winning Oscars for his work on Disney's ALADDIN with Alan Menken and THE LION KING with Elton John - as well as sharing a Tony for Best Score with Elton John for AIDA in 2002. When we recently spoke, he was preparing for the world premiere of Andrew Lloyd Webber's new production of THE WIZARD OF OZ for which the superstar composing team has rejoined once again to pen five new songs - I am speaking, of course, of the one and only Sir Tim Rice. Discussing everything from his 70s Andrew Lloyd Webber collaborations to CHESS to the first news on his new musical version of FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, to GLEE, and far beyond, we also take a look at his roots - all with an emphasis on his commitment to craft and bringing new audiences to the theatre. Sir Tim was kind and generous enough to illuminate his illustrious career in Hollywood, the West End and on Broadway exclusively for BroadwayWorld.

Tim Rice may very well go down in history as the man who truly brought contemporary attitudes, a pop music lyrical sensibility and edgy, hip style into musical theatre. Not only on Broadway and the West End, with his revolutionary collaborations with Andrew Lloyd Webber on JOSEPH AND THE AMAZING TECHNICOLOR DREAMCOAT, JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR and EVITA, but also - particularly - his unforgettable work with Disney. Working with Elton John - a fellow rocker - to create the most celebrated animated film since SNOW WHITE, THE LION KING is the phenomenon of the century; having taken the world by storm as both one of the most successful films of all time and, for the last twelve years and counting, one of the most enduring stage spectacles ever to grace Broadway. Rice's contributions to BEAUTY & THE BEAST, the first Disney stage venture, also cannot be underestimated as it was his theatrical sensibility that helped to seamlessly amend the film score with composer Alan Menken in the wake of Howard Ashman's untimely death - "A Change In Me" is as important to the stage score as any other song. Rice's collaboration with Menken on ALADDIN reaped them an Academy Award for Best Song for "A Whole New World" - by the way, be sure to check out our InDepth InterView with Lea Salonga where we discuss her work on ALADDIN - as did his lyrics for Elton John's music for THE LION KING's "Can You Feel The Love Tonight?" John and Rice have teamed up twice since then, writing songs for the animated feature film THE ROAD TO EL DORADO and 2002 Tony-winning stage musical AIDA. THE LION KING and ALADDIN have both been announced for Blu-Ray release in the coming months, with THE LION KING available for pre-order here.

Also, our mini-series on Tim Rice from a few week ago featuring interviews with Ashley Brown - original star of Disney‘s MARY POPPINS, who returned to the Broadway show in the title role on March 8 - and Josh Strickland - the original title character in Disney‘s TARZAN and now star of HOLLY‘S WORLD - are also available at the links below and entire Tim Rice & FRIENDS concert can now be viewed at the New York Times Times Talk website, following its airing in NYC last week!

King of Lyrics

PC: CHESS was the first musical that really had an impact on me, just from the album. Could you tell me about the edginess and daringness of that show - the first musical with a rap song - and why you wrote it in the first place?

TR: Well, at first, I was just intrigued by the Boris Spassky/Bobby Fischer chess games in the seventies. I'm not really a chess freak.

PC: Can you play?

TR: Yes, I can play the game, but what really intrigued me was the way that a chess match was being used as political football. Both America and Russia - or the Soviet Union, as it was then - were really trying to make the Fischer/Spassky thing a demonstration of which system of government was better - which was ludicrous, really. I mean, the Cold War was being fought on a small chessboard in Iceland!

PC: How unreal. Did you see it for yourself?

TR: Yes, actually, I went to Iceland by chance, to see a production of JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR, in 1973, and the Fischer/Spassky match which I had been following in 1972 had taken place there and there were still lots of shops showing posters and souvenirs and things - you know, red cubics - that had been established during the match.

PC: Thus the "Merchandiser's Song!"

TR: I got lots of ideas. I thought I could put a love interest into it. It was a story that just intrigued me and the more that I found out about the chess world - the fact that people defected and there were people like Victor Korchnoi, who had left his wife who was in the West and his wife wasn't let out - there were so many extraordinary stories connected with chess. It's all simply because the Russians are so good at it!

PC: And The Russian wins in CHESS.

TR: That's right. That's why when somebody like Bobby Fisher appears on the scene - as a great American chess player - threw the whole chess world into turmoil. With the whole story of CHESS, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. (Laughs.)

PC: I have to ask - what about Michael Bennett's influence on the show at its earliest stages?

TR: (Sighs.) Well, in a way, it's hard to tell what his influence was, really. Obviously, Michael came into the piece after it was written so he had virtually - well, he had no influence at all - on the actual writing of the show. And... (Pause.) He was working with, obviously, lots of interesting ideas - but, they never really came to fruition.

PC: The million dollar TV screen walls.

TR: In all honesty, one never really quite knew what he might or might not have done. There was definite groundwork [being laid], but I was not aware completely of how his version of the whole thing was going to work. Obviously, he was a very distinguished man of the theatre and, obviously, had a lot of good ideas.

PC: Of course, that's why he was involved in the first place.

TR: To be brutally honest, I never got to find out exactly what his vision was. Tragically, as of course you know, he was ill and had to come off the project. So, all we really know is his involvement in the casting and his involvement with the aspects of the set design and all of that. The thing is, he pulled away from the show before we got into any rehearsals or anything like that - and I don't blame him for one minute - but I can't really say for sure what his influence was or whether it was an influence.

PC: And his is one of the greatest losses in the theatre.

TR: I know. We'll never, ever know. I agree with you, Pat.

PC: That could have been the big one - the biggest one.

TR: (Laughs.) Indeed. I mean, with the show, Trevor Nunn did a very good job with taking what Michael had bequeathed him without really knowing what Michael was going to do with it - he had the whole cast that Michael had chosen and he had various other things which Michael had put in place: the choreographer; the set designer; the lighting designer; this, that, and the other - some of which Trevor changed and some of which he didn't. We'll never really know what could have been with Michael. I mean, the show had been rewritten to a certain extent with Michael's requests, and Trevor had to put together - you see, it was quite difficult because it wasn't quite Trevor's vision and it wasn't quite Michael's vision. It wasn't until we got to Broadway that Trevor did his own vision.

PC: Yes, and...

TR: And it doesn't work. (Laughs.)

PC: I just interviewed Idina Menzel about filming the DVD version and working with you on it. Are you glad that the show will live on forever on disc, in that version?

TR: Well, I hope so! I mean, you know, I sort of say, "Well, this is the version that maybe works." But, really, I was trying to get back to the original concept - the sort of way that the record was conceived. Although the version we did at the Albert Hall is slightly different - it isn't exactly like the record - and there are extra bits.

PC: Lots of them!

TR: Yes, of course, I wanted to remind people that it was an opera. Also, it was something in which - as we just discussed - I very much wanted the Russian to win.

PC: Of course - it's essential.

TR: CHESS is the story of Anatoly's struggle against lots of competing forces in his life and, in the end, the only thing he finds he can be true to is CHESS. (Pause.) To a great extent, that was the version I wanted. I didn't want the American player to win - which is what happened in New York - and there were various other aspects of the show that I hadn't really liked on Broadway.

PC: You are not alone in that sentiment, to be sure.

TR: I just wanted to bring it back and show that it could work in concert. You didn't need huge sets or fantastic staging - you just wanted to get back to the nitty-gritty of the piece. That's what I was trying to do.

PC: And the score carries it though.

TR: Yes. Does it!

PC: Did you set out with Benny and Bjorn to write the first musical theatre rap song with "One Night In Bangkok"?

TR: (Laughs.) No! I don't think we really knew what we were doing! (Laughs.)

PC: You're too humble!

TR: It just seemed to work! Sometimes things just work. It wasn't really a sort of deliberate attempt to do something new and edgy or something that was quote-un-quote "rap". (Pause.) It was just something that seemed to really work in that particular scene. I wasn't even sure that when we wrote it - even then I wasn't sure it was rap. It was just this kind of spoken thing that happened to be done to a beat - so, I suppose it was rap.

PC: Without question.

TR: In 1984, rap wasn't - a lot of people wouldn't have known anything of what rap was! I'm not sure we knew what rap was then.

PC: It was so ahead of its time in so many ways.

TR: You're very kind. But, remember, the song "One Night In Bangkok" was a big hit and most people didn't realize for a moment that it came from a show. They thought it was just a nice pop song.

PC: And a wild music video, too!

TR: (Big Laugh.) That, too!

PC: CHESS MOVES is camp, but the LYRICS OF Tim Rice video is a great collection of videos of your songs.

TR: Oh, right. I remember that. (Sighs.) That was eons ago!

PC: I loved it even as a little kid. It's great for all ages.

TR: Wow, those were made before you were born! (Laughs.)

PC: I have to mention the first musical you wrote with Andrew Lloyd Webber, THE LIKES OF US. I love "Going, Going, Gone" that you sing on the new cast recording.

TR: You're an expert. That's amazing. I can't believe you even know about that.

PC: Once you hear it you can't forget it. What a great patter song. I love it.

TR: (Laughs.) Oh, God.

PC: Flashing forward forty years to the newest show you wrote together, the new songs for THE WIZARD OF OZ.

TR: It's absolutely fine. I'm really not deeply involved in the show - I'm just sort of a hired hand. I've done a couple of lyrics for Andrew - four, actually. I've seen the show once so far and they seem to be going quite well. I went to an early preview and I can't really tell you very much about it except that I think the show seems to be working fine. We'll have to see how it works on opening night!

PC: "The Witch's Song" was on YouTube for a short while. Wow - as good as any of your best collaborations.

TR: Oh, I didn't know some of it had actually made it onto YouTube! That's interesting. I will tell you, the night I saw it, certainly "The Witch's Song" went down a storm because Hannah Waddingham is so brilliant.

PC: And writing for Michael Crawford? "The Wonders of the World" has some of your most lovely lyrics ever. Were you particularly inspired?

TR: Nope! (Big Laugh.) I don't think so. I was just doing me job, really. You know, I never know when I've been inspired or not. I mean, sometimes you write a song and you think at the end, "Oh, cool. That one came out quite well." And, other times, I feel like I've really been working my guts out and at the end of the day it's pretty useless. So, it's very hard to tell. I don't think you can analyze stuff - the process - too, too, too much.

PC: What's your process?

TR: I think, basically, what you have to do is to write what you think is suitable for the occasion - sometimes it works brilliantly; and, other times, it just doesn't. So, it's as simple as that.

PC: Elaine Paige told me in our interview that the biggest disgrace of the British musical theatre is that you haven't written more musicals. It's a huge shame and I agree.

TR: Well, that's very kind, but I feel like I've done quite a few - probably enough. (Laughs.)

PC: Alan Menken broke the news to me that ALADDIN is coming to the stage - they are trying out in Seattle this summer. What can you tell me about it? Are you involved?

TR: Well, I don't think I am since no one has asked me about it! Probably not! (Laughs.) I'm not going to be not involved - I mean, if it happens I'm more than happy to contribute what I can. In all honesty, I don't know much about it yet.

PC: Have you spoken to Alan about it?

TR: Yes, Alan told me that it was going to Seattle. I think that's great. That's all I've heard so far.

PC: It starts this summer, as far as I know.

TR: I'm going to definitely fly out to see it.

PC: Even you want to know how they will do the magic carpet!

TR: (Laughs.) I do!

PC: We'll have to all be content with just THE LION KING on Broadway until then, I suppose.

TR: He's still going strong, though, isn't he! (Laughs.)

PC: Since they have just recently done two versions of one of your songs - "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" - I have to ask what you think of GLEE?

TR: I love GLEE. I haven't seen them do "Argentina" yet. Somebody told me they'd done it. My twelve-year-old daughter loves GLEE so I've watched it with her quite a bit. I don't really know too much about GLEE other than it seems to be a very good television program. I'm intrigued with the fact that they have complimented us by doing "Don't Cry For Me Argentina".

PC: I would assume you'd find GLEE particularly fascinating since you originally come from the pop music world - and so much of your career has been bringing modern styles to the theatre. You have a deep affection for pop music, no?

TR: Yes. Yes. Very.

PC: You literally wrote the book on British pop music, no?

TR: We did. Yes. Some years ago, we wrote a book that did very well in England. We did what we thought was the definitive history of the pop charts - that was our aim. It was a reference work. We weren't making any sort of comment or artistic view of all the hits - we were just trying to show people what had been successful and how successful it had been and they could make their own conclusions, that's all.

PC: And JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR ushered in the modern rock sound into the musical theatre.

TR: Yes.

PC: Who were your main influences? I've heard you speak of BrIan Wilson, who has actually done this column.

TR: I am a big fan of BrIan Wilson, but I'm not so sure he actually influenced us with that show. I think for both Andrew and I HAIR was the big influence. I suppose, also, - especially Andrew - all the Rodgers & Hammerstein, Rodgers & Hart, Lerner & Loewe shows; all that was an influence to a great extent. I was particularly influenced by people like Jerry Leiber & Mike Stoller - who were songwriters I admired greatly.

PC: Of course. SMOKEY JOE'S CAFÉ.

TR: Yes. I was also probably influenced by a lot of the great pop acts - you know: the Everly Brothers, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Eddie Cochran; those sort of people. It was a sort of combination of my rock sensibilities and Andrew's theatre sensibilities that kind of worked quite well. I mean, Andrew knew a lot about rock music and I knew a lot about theatre. But, basically, we kind of had slightly different backgrounds.

PC: In what sense?

TR: Well, I mean that I was not that involved with theatre at all at that stage of my life. I had hardly seen a show when I met Andrew.

PC: I have to compliment you both on picking up where you left off with "You Must Love Me" from EVITA and also, particularly, the new song you recently wrote for JOSEPH AND THE AMAZING TECHNICOLOR DREAMCOAT, "King of My Heart." Pharaoh is Elvis, after all - and he now has the ultimate Elvis song!

TR: That was obviously a deliberate tribute to the great Elvis - that character and his material. I think I mention something like fifteen Elvis Presley songs. When we did that new track for the recent JOSEPH show in London and we gave Pharaoh that new song, I think I mentioned about twelve more Elvis songs. It's been quite fun going back and doing new stuff like that.

PC: In community theatre in this country, both JOSEPH and SUPERSTAR are constantly produced. Are you glad that your work is consistently seen?

TR: Oh, of course. I am very flattered. It's very kind of them to do it, you know?

PC: What's on your iPod? And, you can't use Stephen Sondheim's answer (he said "wrapping paper")!

TR: (Big Laugh.) That's such a good answer, though! (Laughs. Pause.) I don't have one - that's the answer. I'm sorry. I happen to prefer to play my record player with albums. I play Cds in the car. I briefly had an iPod and I thought, "I'm never gonna play this!" So, I gave it up. I mean, I do not like walking around with music in my ears - I'm too worried that I'm going to be hit by a car! I have no interest in listening to an iPod. Sorry.

PC: What do you think of Sondheim's work - particularly, as a lyricist?

TR: Well: fantastic. He is number one. Particularly lyrically, he's just out there. I think some of the lyrics he's done are just perfect.

PC: Such as?

TR: Well, I saw WEST SIDE STORY the other day for the two-hundred-and-eighty-eighth time and - every time I see it it's just like the first time and I think, "I don't know how he did those words. They are brilliant."

PC: What is your writing process? When do you write?

TR: Oh, it's so hopelessly inefficient. I tend to write - I suppose - more in the evenings than any other time. I'm just a bit inefficient.

PC: As the most accomplished British lyricist of all time.

TR: (Laughs.)

PC: Define collaboration.

TR: (Huge Sigh. Pause. ) Oh, gosh. I suppose it's mutual respect. Whether it's writers working with the director or the director working with the set designers or any relationship in the theatre - if you actually respect what the other bloke does, it's successful. I mean, if you don't like what the other bloke does, I think collaboration is impossible. I think you have got to be a fan of the other bloke.

PC: What's next? OH, WHAT A CIRCUS Part 2?

TR: Oh, well, no - I'm a little bit soggy-ish on that one! I haven't actually gotten around to that yet. I need to, though, because the first one covered thirty-three years and I am now sixty-six, so it's perfect timing.

PC: It's "written in the stars" - quoth you in AIDA.

TR: (Laughs.) Indeed!

PC: What's next onstage after THE WIZARD OF OZ?

TR: I am working on a musical based on FROM HERE TO ETERNITY. I think that will be the next thing that goes into production.

PC: What a great property to bring to the stage! Who are your collaborators?

TR: Well, funnily enough, I was initially just a producer on it. The score was written by a young man named Stuart Brazen, who is a very talented writer and whose work I had been following for quite some time. He came up with this wonderful score based on the film and book FROM HERE TO ETERNITY and I said, "This is something well-worth me getting interested in." I wasn't going to be involved with the writing, but as things have progressed - I've got a director; I've got a book writer; and, I found myself becoming the producer - it took me quite a while to get the rights. We still need some new songs, and Stuart wants me to do the lyrics, so I've already done one new song with him and we've got a few more in the works. I hope to get FROM HERE TO ETERNITY off the ground within the next year.

PC: Who is the book writer?

TR: The book writer is a chap called Bill Oakes, who was executive producer of movies such as SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER and GREASE.

PC: Wow! What pedigree! And the director?

TR: The director is a very talented young British director named Tamara Harvey.

PC: A whole fresh new team!

TR: I think it's a really good team.

PC: It's nice to see you working with fresh, young, up-and-coming talent.

TR: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I think, you know, I'm quite keen to do that at this point. It's been something that I was getting a bit worried about - that there isn't very much new talent getting a chance. So, that's what I've been doing with this next project.

PC: What advice would you give to young aspiring musical theatre writers?

TR: Oh, gosh! (Laughs.) I guess: Keep at it! Don't give up! In practical terms, get your work staged. Get it seen. It's much better to see it. Cds and leaflets about your show don't often work, to be honest. A live performance is the only way to get something going, in my view.

PC: This has been a dream come true, sir. I cannot thank you enough. Also, do you know the site?

TR: Yes, I know the site! It's great. Just great.

PC: This was amazing.

TR: Thank you very much. All the best. Thank you very much for calling. It was wonderful, Pat. Bye!

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