BWW EXCLUSIVE: Shaiman & Wittman Talk SMASH, CATCH ME & More!

Legends in their own time, ascending to the top ranks of the Hollywood and Broadway songwriting landscape, Marc Shaiman and Scott Wittman have accomplished and climbed to heights most of what many film fans, Broadway babies and general entertainment junkies only dream of witnessing and ascending to in their lifetimes. Marc Shaiman's work with Trey Parker and Matt Stone on SOUTH PARK: BIGGER, LONGER & UNCUT prompted Stephen Sondheim - as he told me himself - to cite it as one of the best musicals of the era. And, it is - as is their Tony-winning Best Musical HAIRSPRAY, based on the film by Pope of Trash John Waters. Featuring John Travolta, Michelle Pfeiffer, Zac Efron, Queen Latifah and an all-around-amazing cast of triple-threats, the stunning Craig Zadan/Neil Meron-produced film version of HAIRSPRAY may be the greatest cinematic Shaiman and/or Wittman accomplishment so far. Then, there is CATCH ME IF YOU CAN - one of the snappiest new scores on Broadway in a strangely strong season of original scores - boasting boss Sinatra blues and sizzling Shirelles riffs and everything else that's swingin' in between. Up next for the team - onstage and off - is a stage adaptation of Roald Dahl's CHARLIE & THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY directed by Oscar-winning director Sam Mendes, in addition to what is perhaps the most exciting prospect on their impossibly cluttered horizon: the new Steven Speilberg/Craig Zadan/Neil Meron musical/comedy/drama series SMASH which has just been picked up for the Fall season on NBC! In this exclusive, extensive and exhaustive conversation we cover it all from HAIRSPRAY to CATCH ME to CHARLIE to all about SMASH and far, far beyond!

Gentlemens' Choice

PC: HAIRSPRAY is one of the biggest musicals of the 21st century - and one of the most memorable scores in recent memory.

MS: (Laughs.)

SW: (Laughs.) Thank you so much - I really don't know what to say. (Pause. Laughs.) We're very happy to have a babysitting tool!

PC: "Ladies' Choice" for the HAIRSPRAY film: What was it like creating that especially for film - it is quite a different sound than anything in the Broadway score.

SW: And, also, because we had Zac we wanted to do something that would service him, as well. Adam Shankman wanted a different energy at that moment, so we got to bring out that element.

MS: And we did it in an early-sixties Elvis feel.

SW: We were doing Elvis through Zac - yeah.

MS: Elvis - definitely.

PC: A handsome actor and an amazing triple-threat, too.

SW: We loved him. I gave him his first drink on his eighteenth birthday. (Laughs.)

PC: You are famous for writing more than one song for a particular slot, so did you write more than one song for him?

MS: No, we didn't write anything else - that was actually our first stab at that. We did write that sort of in an old-school style - there's a great story that goes with the writing of that song: we were out of town working on the Martin Short show [FAME BECOMES ME]. We were in a hotel room.

SW: Right. Right.

MS: We actually wrote that in a hotel room - just like you read about in the books about Broadway - only, we didn't write it for the show we were working on the time; we wrote it for the movie we were working on at the same time.

PC: What was that stressful experience like?

MS: Oh, I have such a clear picture in my mind in my head of the keyboard set-up I had in the room writing that.

PC: What about writing "It Takes Two" for Matt Morrison in the same slot when HAIRSPRAY was in workshops like?

MS: Yes, well, the song existed before Matt...

SW: That has sort of a fairy-tale story attached to it, because, originally, someone else was playing that part...

PC: James Carpinello.

SW: Right. Yes. And, then, Jimmy got a movie and he said, "This is a big break for me."

PC: What did you say?

SW: Oh, well, we said, "We don't want anyone to be unhappy in HAIRSPRAY!"

MS: (Laughs.)

SW: So, Jimmy left and, of course, Matt was his cover. So, Matt stepped into that part... and stepped into everyone's living room, as well.

PC: Of course - on GLEE. I have to say, HAIRSPRAY in previews on Broadway was one of the most electric audiences I've ever experienced. Did you anticipate Harvey would bring that to the show?

SW: No, because when we cast that show originally - I think it was Bernie Telsey, the casting director - we were trying to find someone who had a very unique vocal quality like Divine.

PC: Of course.

MS: I remember it distinctly: we were at auditions for one of the readings. And, the readings are a great way to audition because little by little you are auditioning people who, hopefully, might end up in the final production. And, Scott and I had just watched the movie the night before and we were still writing songs - and, we thought, "Eh, we haven't watched the movie in a long time, so let's watch the movie." So, when I came into auditions the next day I said to the room, you know, like Divine, I said, (Divine Voice.) "I'm tryin' to iron in here!"

PC: So funny.

MS: It's funny, but just because of the sound of his voice! I said, "I wish we could find someone who just the sound of their voice would add something unmistakable to it." Then, I guess I got Bernie's brain starting going and he came in the next day and said, "Hey, how about Harvey Fierstein?"

PC: What did he sing?

SW: Wasn't it "Frank Mills"?

MS: Yeah, he sang "Frank Mills" from HAIR! In the lowest key - a key not known to man.

PC: That's insane.

MS: (Harvey Fierstein Impression.) "I know a boy named Frank Mills...." No, even lower than that! (Laughs.)

SW: It's true!

PC: No way!

MS: Someone had once told him that he couldn't sing in a semi-normal range. So, we went over to the piano and said, "Can you do this a step higher?" And, then, we kept going a step higher and a step higher. It turns out that despite his vocal range...

SW: ... the basso profundo...

MS: Yeah, he actually sings in a normal baritone range.

SW: It was so very clear when we saw him in LA CAGE last week and he was so musical. And, magnificent, as well.

PC: Tom Wopat recently did this column and spoke very favorably about working with him in A CATERED AFFAIR. What was it like devising a score for a non-singer like Harvey - or, did he have a workable voice?

SW: Harvey had a very workable voice and he certainly influenced the writing of the rest of the score.

PC: Neil Patrick Harris just did this column, as well, and you two wrote such fabulous specialty material for him for the Tony Awards in the past - will you be doing it again this year?

SW: Well, we haven't been asked yet! So... (Laughs.)

PC: Did you enjoy writing for him in the past?

SW: Yeah, we've done a lot of award shows with Neil and we were, of course, loving it at the Tony's...

MS: Yeah, that was a thrill working on that one in particular, though, because it was Neil's idea to have it close the show instead of open the show and the idea to have it appear to be like a magic trick. It was like, "How did they possibly write a song that was about things that just happened?"

PC: How did you do it?

MS: Scott and I wrote a streak version of the lyrics and we were right there backstage just in case something really special happened during the show that we could incorporate into the lyric. Then, lo and behold, there it was - and, he was performing it!

PC: And, it was fantastic!

MS: Listen, standing ovations are quite normal nowadays - it doesn't mean what it used to mean. But, when he finished singing that song and the audience at Radio City jumped to their feet in a way that was so, so thrilling - it felt so genuine.

SW: Right. Because, everyone had told him, "Oh, you can't do that. You can't do anything after they hand out Best Musical."

PC: Really?

MS: Yeah, we even had to eat our hats - Scott and I had agreed with them and we had to, too! I mean, we said, "Neil, everybody is so ready to leave then! The audience is all filled with losers then." You know? (Laughs.)

PC: Yes.

MS: Not losers, of course - let's just say that they just didn't win the award.

PC: What was it like to be the first gay kiss ever on an award show stage?

MS: Well, I don't think that's true - it couldn't be true! (Laughs.)

SW: (Laughs.) I think we kissed Matthew Broderick and Sarah Jessica Parker for longer - I think.

MS: Have we done all our research on that? We were really the first - even at the Tony Awards? It seems amazing it took that long. (Laughs.)

PC: Yes. You are true trailblazers.

SW & MS: (Laughs.)

PC: You are! It's the first.

SW: Well, then, we are glad to be trailblazers! (Laughs.)

PC: Tell me about writing "Tweet" for Jane Krakowski - based on "Zip!" from PAL JOEY, of course.

SW: Right. Well, originally, years ago in Los Angeles, we had written a song for Alison Janney for a benefit that's called LES GIRLS. But, it wasn't "Tweet" or anything at that point - it was just new lyrics to "Zip!". It was a burlesque parody, as the rest of the evening was. Lo, many years later, Jane called and said, "I'd like to do something like that in my act." Because the references in that are like milk - in that, it goes sour quickly (Laughs.)

PC: Perfect analogy.

MS: They are like the kind of lyrics that can bring down the house and, then, two weeks later...

SW: ... completely forgotten...

MS: ... it's like crickets! You have to rewrite it constantly. We've probably written around nine versions of that for Jane.

SW: For all her events - and, she's always fantastic.

PC: I love the version on her live album, especially.

MS: I just e-mailed her when she had her baby and I said, "I hope the baby's first word will be...

MS & SW: "Tweet!" (Laughs.)

PC: Speaking of an NBC star, you two have written songs for the new musical series SMASH, correct?

SW: Yes - and we are very proud of it.

MS: We find out any day if it's been picked up - literally. [The next day it was announced the show had been picked up.]

SW: The great thing about it is that it will shoot in New York so, hopefully, it will become like LAW & ORDER for Broadway. There will be lots of singing and dancing in each episode. I mean, the cast is already a who's who of Broadway, with Megan Hilty and Christian Borle and Brian d'Arcy James and, then, we have Angelica Houston and, of course, Deb Messing - and, Kat McPhee. It's quite a talented group.

PC: You can say that again! How many songs will you be writing?

SW: Well, in the first show we have three that are performed.

PC: Will Anjelica Houston be doing any singing?

MS: You never know! (Laughs.)

SW: There might be a scene where she gets drunk at a cast party and sings something - you never know! (Laughs.)

PC: I've heard Kat McPhee is the big breakout star. What is the material you wrote for her like?

SW: Well, Kat was in an early reading of CATCH ME IF YOU CAN - one of the workshops. So, we sort of fell in love with her there. Eventually, the song got cut and the part got reduced slightly. Kat just floored us in that - and now.

PC: So, she didn't play Brenda?

SW: No, she was Cheryl Ann.

MS: Yeah, the prostitute.

SW: She had a big number that was cut in Seattle.

PC: "The Wages Of Sin" was a great number - so was "Fifty Checks". Why did those two songs have to go? Time?

SW: It's mostly about the streamlining of the story, so as glorious as Tom sang the song ["Fifty Checks"] - and, we actually have it as a bonus track on the record - it stopped the show and it stopped the show, do you know what I mean?

PC: That's a great line. But, it is too bad it made the show peak too early.

MS: It's always a shame to see those ones go.

PC: Speaking of which: tell me about "Christmas In Montmontre" - that's my favorite song that has been cut from the CATCH ME score.

SW: Yeah, well, when we started writing the score, we wanted a song that was sort of a Judy Garland/Edith Piaf number for the mother because he sort of sees his parents as glorified icons. So, we wrote the song to sound like that.

PC: Those influences definitely come through - and Patti LuPone recorded the demo, of course, What was that like?

SW: Well, we've both worked a great deal with Patti for the past twenty years. So, we said, "Patti, would you mind singing this demo for us?" And, of course, she obliged.

PC: It's a great number. Did the swingin' 60s version of the other Christmas-themed song make the CATCH ME cast album?

SW: No, there wasn't room - there's so much material.

MS: We would have liked to record it, but there really wasn't enough time. We thought that on the record it would take you away from the story too much. But, one of the girls in the ensemble - Candace - had a great idea, which is that if they ask the show to do a number for the Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS Christmas album, we'll record it then.

SW: CAROLS FOR A CURE.

MS: So, I said, "Yeah! That's such a great idea!" So, we might get to get it out there still.

PC: I hope that happens.

MS: I was also working with Mariah Carey last summer - we were working on her Christmas album - and I so wanted to slip it to her!

PC: What happened? You didn't?

MS: Well, working with her is very mysterious. (Laughs.) You only get a certain amount of hours before you are suddenly in the recording studio, finishing. So, I literally never had the time to say, "Oh, and by the way, listen to this."

PC: Simon Cowell recently did this column and spoke so favorably about working with her. Did you enjoy the experience, as well? The final product turned out wonderfully, I must say. It's a worthy successor.

MS: Oh, I really enjoyed working with her. And, well, I can make her laugh really well, so that always makes me happy when I can get a good laugh out of someone. We just really hit it off - even though the time spent with each other was fast.

SW: And away from me! (Laughs.)

MS: (Laughs.) We both enjoyed it very much and I hope to work with her again, for sure.

PC: Do you think rap and hip-hop can work in the theatre?

MS: Anything can work in the theatre if you have a story.

SW: And, obviously, Lin-Manuel did it so brilliantly in his show [IN THE HEIGHTS].

MS: If it tells the story, it works.

PC: Can we expect some rap from you in the future - I‘ve heard about a Mattel/G.I. Joe musical?

SW: No, not that - that Mattel musical kind of went away a few years ago.

PC: What about CHARLIE & THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY?

SW: We are definitely working on CHARLIE. We do that in London in about a year and a half.

PC: What can you tell me about the score? Will the show be based mostly on the Roald Dahl books?

SW: Yes. We've been working with the Dahl estate. And, we've had a couple of readings in New York and we actually just saw the set model the other day. So, it's all very exciting.

PC: What's the schedule?

SW: Well, Sam is going off now to do the James Bond movie -and that takes a year of your life - so, after that, we start production in the West End.

PC: What about casting Willy Wonka? What is that process going to be like?

MS & SW: (Laughs.)

MS: It will be very interesting because already the interest has been coming into to both of us and, also, to Sam.

SW: But, it's very vocally demanding.

PC: Would you call it operatic?

MS: I wouldn't call it operatic, but it's not something where someone could think they could just talk their way through it.

PC: So, it's not an easy sing?

SW: No, it's definitely not an easy score.

PC: Going back to your beginnings: what was the scene in New York in the early 80s like, back when you and Marc first started writing musicals? I've heard that you used to write a new show every week.

SW: Well, we used to say that we were too rock n roll for theatre and too theatre for rock n roll. So, we found this sort of perfect place in the East Village that, at that time - the late 70s and early 80s - it must have been like Paris in the 20s. You know, no one had any money so you were sort of creating out of nothing and you were fearless. And, so, we found this group of like-minded people who had this sort of crazy club house that was like Andy Hardy on acid. So, we were down there and we just kept turning things out because we had seven nights a week to fill.

PC: What were the shows like?

SW: Oh, there were a lot of them - everyone had a night. There was Keith Harring and Anne Magnuson and Joey Arias and this sort of crazy hotbed of talent that made us think, "Oh, my God! There are other people in the world who think like us!"

PC: Are there people from that time who are still around?

SW: Yes, there are, actually. We had a reunion last year and there were - but, sadly, as I looked around it was clear that not many of the men survived. But, it was great to see everybody again. Of course, Anne and Joey have gone onto success, and Keith, obviously, did - and Kenny Sharfe. But, it was sad because there were a lot of people missed.

PC: What was that period of time like in New York? Did you ever meet Michael Bennett?

SW: No, I never met him per se, but I saw him around. Jerry Mitchell and I were friends then so I remember going to various workshops. I did go to a DREAMGIRLS workshop.

PC: Jerry is the absolute best. What was the DREAMGIRLS workshop like?

SW: Well, in the second act, Effie went to work at a nursing home.

PC: With Estelle Getty, right?

SW: Yes! With Estelle Getty. My friend Ellen Foley was in it, so we went to that for her.

PC: The great female voice from BAT OUT OF HELL. She's so amazing.

SW: Oh, yeah. We love Ellen.

PC: What do you think of BAT OUT OF HELL and Jim Steinman's music in general?

SW: Oh, my God! That BAT OUT OF HELL album, you could put it right on stage.

MS: I'm surprised they haven't.

PC: They are in the process right now, apparently.

SW: Oh, that's great. He writes just... those are just quintessential power ballads. They are like one-act operas or one-act plays. They are just amazing.

PC: Would you like to do a full-out rock score in the future - "Goodbye" is certainly pretty rocking.

SW: Yeah, we don't say no to anything - just as long as the story is compelling enough to tell, we just try to find the appropriate medium and vocabulary to tell it with. But, sure.

PC: With HAIRSPRAY and, now, CATCH ME, you have the 60s r&b and rock realms pretty covered, so what genre inspires you now to do next?

SW: Well, I mean, CHARLIE has its own vocabulary because it sort of takes place in its own fantasyland. So, it's a very different score. There is nothing 60s-based in it, for sure.

PC: How would you describe the sound of CHARLIE?

SW: Well, you know, it has a Willy Wonka musical vocabulary - which is a style all its own. Because Willy is such a cipher for so many different things - and he's so mercurial - he changes sound constantly.

PC: Do all the children sing in different genres?

SW: Yes, of course! Of course.

MS: Of course.

PC: And, should we anticipate a revolutionary technical design?

SW: Well, we've seen the set models for the first act of CHARLIE and it's very complicated - and very big.

PC: What do you think of 3D projections in the theatre in general?

SW: There's actually a production of HAIRSPRAY in Australia that's all projection-based.

MS: I just saw online - and, of course, it can't come across online in 3D - but, just by tripping along the internet I came across this whole thing where they 3D project onto buildings?

PC: I haven't heard of that.

MS: Yeah, it's this whole new thing I'd never heard of either until someone posted something on Facebook and it made me keep going and clicking, clicking though. It's unbelievable the images that they create - and the fact that it is so fantastic watching it in 2D! I can't even imagine what it's like in person.

PC: So, you think it is an exciting time for set design?

MS: Well, projections for a while became a little like, "Oh, no, not again!" when you went to see a show and it was projections. But, I think now they've discovered a whole other world with it.

PC: Do you think 3D-projected set design is the way of the future?

SW: I don't know. (Pause.) Again, I think it comes down to whatever tells the story best. I mean, I still like paint brushes! (Laughs.) It's just whatever tells the story best.

PC: What do you think of robot choruses and automatons - some stage productions in Asia already are using them. Would you consider using them?

MS: No. (Laughs.) Never!

PC: Really? Why not?

MS: Well, unless it's THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL... (Laughs.)

PC: There's a robot pop star in Japan - and a dancing troupe.

SW: I still love The Rockettes, so... (Laughs.)

PC: What about having one of your shows filmed and broadcast nationally or internationally in movie theatres - like MEMPHIS, and COMPANY, coming up?

SW: I think that's exciting. I think anything that gets people excited about going to the theatre is valuable. What Peter Gelb has done at the Met is miraculous. When those HD broadcasts are done, they sell out. So, I think anything that turns you onto theatre or something new is a great thing.

PC: Did you set out with CATCH ME IF YOU CAN to write cross-generationally as a meta-narrative for the show, since it is ostensibly about a family?

SW: Well, obviously, the period required it to be told in that way. We always felt that Frank would tell his story in his own grand terms - it would not be just a direct screen-to-stage adaptation.

MS: And, it would have to be multi-generational because of the story and, luckily for us, the 60s was a time when there was different music for different generations all on the radio at the same time.

PC: "Hello, Dolly!" and The Beatles duked it out for the top spot.

MS: Right. Exactly. I mean, Scott's heard me say this a million times, but: it's like THE Ed Sullivan SHOW when we were kids. I actually wish I had exact memories of the shows because I say this all the time and I can't actually remember the exact shows that I remember watching. You know, the Beatles were on and then Kate Smith and then Judy Garland...

SW: Shecky Greene...

MS: The Roling Stones...

SW: Totie Fields...

MS: Herman & The Hermits. Of course, Frank Sinatra...

PC: And DAMN YANKEES!

MS & SW: (Laughs.)

MS: Exactly. When we were growing up we really got exposed to every kind of music. On the radio there was still Peggy Lee popping up with "Is That All There Is?" and Frank and Nancy Sinatra on "Somethin' Stupid". So, the generations, as the gap was becoming larger - there were still these moments of trying to reach across the gap on the radio and on TV. It was a glorious, glorious time. So, that's what CATCH ME IF YOU CAN exists inside of - that template.

PC: Have you offered Mariah "Fly, Fly Away" yet?

MS: I will certainly pass it on to her at the correct time. (Laughs.)

SW: I can see them doing that on AMERICAN IDOL, that's all I can say.

MS: I know! I was saying the other day, "If only they were more open to things like that," because there are five or six songs from our show that would have fit the top people in the running on that show so well.

PC: Such as?

MS: I mean, "Seven Wonders" could easily be sung by Scotty. "Goodbye" could be sung by James. "Fly, Fly Away" - any of the girls. It's a shame that we can't do just that. I'm even friends now with Randy Jackson from having worked with him on Mariah‘s album, but I knew that if I said, "Hey, why don't you sing a whole bunch of songs from a new Broadway musical on your third to last show?" - you know, that they would really jump on that! (Laughs.)

PC: Do you think AMERICAN IDOL is a good influence on how people audition and the casting process in general - or do you think that Broadway talent in general is very versatile and can do any number of things you ask of them anyway?

SW: I think that you have to nowadays - I think it's a prerequisite. You know, even when we were casting the SMASH pilot - you know, it's not like SINGIN' IN THE RAIN where you have someone singing for you offstage! (Laughs.)

MS: No, it isn't. (Laughs.)

PC: Definitely not.

SW: These people have to really, really, really be able to sing - and dance, and act. So, I think you have to be able to handle anything. Hey, I mean, Tom Cruise is doing it in ROCK OF AGES [the movie musical].

PC: He is. He sang in MAGNOLIA as well - one of the most interesting movie musicals ever, I believe.

SW: Oh, yes! That's right. He did.

MS: I loved that movie.

PC: Speaking of your film work: I love your work on RUMOR HAS IT. Nellie McKay spoke very favorably about working with you on the project when she did this column, as well. What a talent!

SW: Oh, we love Nellie.

MS: We love, love Nellie. She was in a CHARLIE reading.

PC: No way! So, you are both fans of her solo work?

SW: Oh, yes. She played Charlie's mom.

MS: She was amazing. She is so otherworldly.

PC: Stephen Sondheim has cited SOUTH PARK: BIGGER, LONGER & UNCUT as one of his favorite musical film scores - do you have any comment on that?

MS: It is nice to know that Sondheim enjoyed the SOUTH PARK movie so. He never reached out to me, only Trey, so I've never been sure how cognizant he was or is of my input.

PC: Define collaboration.

MS: Well, in CATCH ME IF YOU CAN, as with anything, collaboration is everything - God knows! I mean, you have to be able to get into the room with a bunch of people and all think the same way - or, if you think different ways, be able to communicate in a peaceful and respectful manner.

SW: And, you have to be open to that. I mean, I think the head prop guy at CATCH ME said to me, "I think I have a better line for you here!" You know what I mean?

MS: (Laughs.)

PC: That's so funny.

SW: You have to keep your ear open.

PC: Always keep your ear open - and to the ground.

SW: Yes. Yes. Because, in the end, the final collaborator is always the audience.

PC: So true. Thank you both so very, very much for doing this. You are both simply divine.

SW: Thank you! We bless you and kiss your feet, Pat. Bye bye.

MS: Thank you so much, Pat. OK. Bye now.

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